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Author Topic: Evaluating the Niku hypothesis: conflicting strategies for testing hypotheses  (Read 89133 times)

Malcolm McKay

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Dr Moleski - I don't think you realise the seriousness of what you casually inferred I had done.

Dr. McKay, there was nothing casual at all in my identification of the rhetorical form you employed.

The evidence for the classification I made is in your original post.

Anyone who wishes to examine the evidence and test the classification may do so.

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I'll say once more - you have abused your position as a forum moderator and if you had any understanding of that role you would withdraw unconditionally that comment to which I have objected.

Thanks for repeating yourself.  Oddly enough, it doesn't change my view of the situation.

I see your retreat has taught you nothing about ethics. But then I didn't expect miracles.
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Martin X. Moleski, SJ

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I see your retreat has taught you nothing about ethics.

I see that my prayers for you are bearing good fruit.

When you say this, you make several claims.
  • You know what ethics are.
  • You can judge my ethics.
  • You judge that my ethics are deficient.
This is real progress in the spiritual life.  You are now dealing with strictly metaphysical realities and claiming competence in them.  That's a big step forward from your previous descriptions of yourself as a man who accepts nothing but what is proven by science.  "Ethics" can't be apprehended by the senses.  They aren't dug out of the ground and dated as artifacts.  They can't be studied by any of the methods proper to physics, chemistry, or biology.  The standards of ethics are discovered strictly by means of philosophical inquiry.
The fundamental principle of ethics (do good, avoid evil) is not something that can be established by the natural sciences.  It is an axiom of thought on the basis of which other logical inferences may be made, but it cannot be established by formal argument.  People see it or they don't, and accept or reject it without proof.  In other words, the conviction that there are ethics, that they are objective, and that they can be applied to particular cases is an act of faith in our ethical reasoning powers.
Welcome to the world of faith, Dr. McKay!

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But then I didn't expect miracles.

If you want to use a theological term, it would be good to understand what it means in the world of theology.  A miracle is an observable natural event--something that can be apprehended by the senses--that cannot be explained in terms of natural causality. 

My adoption of your understanding of ethics (or your adoption of my understanding) would not technically be classified as a miracle.  It would be an astonishing conversion, and the sense of astonishment might resemble that of people pondering a miraculous event, but they are two different kettles of fish.
LTM,

           Marty
           TIGHAR #2359A
 
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john a delsing

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Marty,
   You have been an excellent moderator. . . . .   don't ruin it.
The Earth is Full
 
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Martin X. Moleski, SJ

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   You have been an excellent moderator. . . . .   don't ruin it.

Thanks for the kind words, John.  :)
LTM,

           Marty
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Malcolm McKay

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   You have been an excellent moderator. . . . .   don't ruin it.

Thanks for the kind words, John.  :)

I think that was a past tense.
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Chris Johnson

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  • Trying to give a fig but would settle for $100,000

This thread is like hard drugs, only the foolhardy experiment  ;D
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john a delsing

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Malcolm,
    Don't start....   your STRONG suit is science.  It very deffiniely is not insults.  You have the ability to greatly help this forum,  very much so, you can also distrack,  very much so.   Your call sir!
The Earth is Full
 
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richie conroy

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Can Malcolm

Show us his Evidence, to prove Tighar is wrong about thinking gardner is were flight ended ?

with actual evidence,  not just nay say

?
We are an echo of the past


Member# 416
 
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john a delsing

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Richie,
   I think you have the cart in front of the horse. It is your job, and my job to prove Amelia landed at gardner, not the other way around. I don't think Malcolm can prove to you that there isn't men on the other side of the moon either. I think you should try listening to him, you might just learn some things. He does have alot to offer. And so do you richie.
The Earth is Full
 
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richie conroy

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John

So we have to prove to Malcolm that Amelia landed at Gardner with smokeing gun evidence

But it's ok for him to dismiss the Gardner hypothesis without evidence, just cos he as done archaeology

if he shows smoking gun evidence, That it was Bert's sextant box an freckle ointment, and not Ernie's on Gardner he has my full Attention  :)   
We are an echo of the past


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Martin X. Moleski, SJ

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So we have to prove to Malcolm that Amelia landed at Gardner with smoking gun evidence

But it's ok for him to dismiss the Gardner hypothesis without evidence, just cos he as done archaeology

The burden of proof does not rest equally on those for and against the Niku Hypothesis.

The person who advances an idea has the burden of proof.  Those who oppose the idea only have to show that the proponents have not met the burden of proof in order to win the debate.

The Niku Hypothesis has to be backed up by evidence.  The declaration that the Niku Hypothesis has not been substantiated only requires inspection of the evidence adduced in its favor by the proponents; it does not require the same kind of proof.

What I find odd about Malcolm is his credulity about the New Britain hypothesis.  He seems to have lost his grip on what is and is not evidence when it comes to the legend of the engine tag.  In that case, he does bear the burden of proof, and those of us who reject his hypothesis get to sit in the cat bird seat singing, "Not proven, not proven, not anywhere nearly proven."   ::)
LTM,

           Marty
           TIGHAR #2359A
 
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C.W. Herndon

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BRAVO Marty.  ;)
Woody (former 3316R)
"the watcher"
 
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Malcolm McKay

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What I find odd about Malcolm is his credulity about the New Britain hypothesis.  He seems to have lost his grip on what is and is not evidence when it comes to the legend of the engine tag.  In that case, he does bear the burden of proof, and those of us who reject his hypothesis get to sit in the cat bird seat singing, "Not proven, not proven, not anywhere nearly proven."   ::)

Credulity Marty? Hmmm...... Let me see.

How about you tell us all exactly what TIGHAR has found and recovered in its existence that is demonstrably part of a historically important aircraft. I know there's the TBD and the P38 they are interested in but have TIGHAR actually recovered them in the sense of removing them, preserving them and actually creating a permanent display for them which shows to the public why they are so historically important, as distinct from the many other private organizations and public museums in the world which have recovered, restored or preserved historically important aircraft.

I know TIGHAR is always talking things up to get funding but have they actually ever completed a project. Let me see besides the two I just mentioned there's L'Oiseau Blanc and of course the headline grabbing Earhart Electra but what else is there?

Now if we are talking credulity here you might care to explain your belief in TIGHAR in comparison with their current track record. Personally I just think that all avenues regarding the recovery of the  Electra should be investigated. So far Nikumaroro has been visited and revisited and TIGHAR have produced nothing that constitutes its own vaunted "smoking gun".

Now I know Marty that you will now set about in true philosopher fashion to tell me that black is white and white is black, but you and I both know that in the end all your reply will be is more word games. So now that that approach for you is dismissed before you even start just answer the question  - care to explain your belief in TIGHAR in comparison with their current track record. Should be easy for you after all you are not in the least credulous are you?   
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Martin X. Moleski, SJ

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How about you tell us all exactly what TIGHAR has found and recovered in its existence that is demonstrably part of a historically important aircraft. I know there's the TBD and the P38 they are interested in but have TIGHAR actually recovered them in the sense of removing them, preserving them and actually creating a permanent display for them which shows to the public why they are so historically important, as distinct from the many other private organizations and public museums in the world which have recovered, restored or preserved historically important aircraft.

I know TIGHAR is always talking things up to get funding but have they actually ever completed a project. Let me see besides the two I just mentioned there's L'Oiseau Blanc and of course the headline grabbing Earhart Electra but what else is there?

There are many stages in historic aircraft recovery.  TIGHAR has participated in many different stages, both as an independent agency and as a sub-contractor for others.

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Now if we are talking credulity here you might care to explain your belief in TIGHAR in comparison with their current track record.

I have arrived at my confidence in TIGHAR's integrity in the same way I have come to trust other people in my life.  The judgment is a blend of several lines of thought.  I like the kind of work they do; I like the way they report their results, including failures and reconsiderations; I like the way that they have promoted standards for research and preservation.  I think I've gotten good returns on my investment of time and money in the organization.

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Personally I just think that all avenues regarding the recovery of the  Electra should be investigated. So far Nikumaroro has been visited and revisited and TIGHAR have produced nothing that constitutes its own vaunted "smoking gun".

Yes, we've noticed that and conceded that more than once, Malcolm.  At what point will you accept the fact that we're aware of this circumstance?

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Now I know Marty that you will now set about in true philosopher fashion to tell me that black is white and white is black,

Your understanding of my philosophy and your prediction of my future behavior is false.  I am a metaphysical realist, not a nominalist.

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... but you and I both know that in the end all your reply will be is more word games.

I believe that words have meanings and that learning how to make distinctions between things and terms is well worthwhile.  I don't mind you making claims about what you know.  When it comes to me, it's my job, not yours, to make my own knowledge claims.

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So now that that approach for you is dismissed before you even start just answer the question ...

Dismissed by whom?  I don't dismiss my philosophy.  The fact that you possess a different set of beliefs about reality is not a cause of angst for me.  I've sort of noticed already that your beliefs and mine are not congruent.

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- care to explain your belief in TIGHAR in comparison with their current track record. Should be easy for you after all you are not in the least credulous are you?

I am willing to believe things under certain conditions.

As I've indicated before, I believe that it is impossible for us to know things without a prior act of faith in our senses and our powers of reasoning. 

I don't believe everything I hear.

I don't believe everything I read.

I think about what I believe.

I strive to understand the conditions of the possibility of thought--in Lonergan's terms, to think about thinking, to understand understanding, to judge judgment, and evaluate values.  I'm satisfied that this has given me a standpoint that is not self-referentially inconsistent.  It is a stable position from which to evaluate other positions in philosophy.
LTM,

           Marty
           TIGHAR #2359A
 
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Malcolm McKay

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There are many stages in historic aircraft recovery.  TIGHAR has participated in many different stages, both as an independent agency and as a sub-contractor for others.

In other words you can't name any - and I'm credulous?
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