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Author Topic: Emily Sikuli and Nessie  (Read 51832 times)

Bruce Thomas

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Re: Emily Sikuli and Nessie
« Reply #30 on: May 04, 2012, 07:38:09 AM »

Like this? First image is a Lockheed Lightning wheel strut. Second image is a Lockheed Electra 10 wheel strut.

Interesting pictures of rusty things.  Can you apprise us all of the origin of those jpegs, and more particularly, what museum and wreck site do they depict?

Thanks,
LTM,

Bruce
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Jeff Victor Hayden

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Re: Emily Sikuli and Nessie
« Reply #31 on: May 04, 2012, 07:39:35 AM »

This link takes a look at the aircraft wreckage and debris strewn about the UK countryside during WW2. There are literally hundreds+++ wrecks. Lots of the images show the remains of the aircraft landing gear. The images are copyrighted so I have not shown them here but it's an interesting site.

http://peakwreckhunters.blogspot.co.uk/2007_08_01_archive.html

I shall be attending the unveiling of a new memorial in honour of the men who served in the US forces based in Berkshire during WW2 this summer. I'll post some pics.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-berkshire-17521255
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Jeff Victor Hayden

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Re: Emily Sikuli and Nessie
« Reply #32 on: May 04, 2012, 08:23:00 AM »

Like this? First image is a Lockheed Lightning wheel strut. Second image is a Lockheed Electra 10 wheel strut.

Interesting pictures of rusty things.  Can you apprise us all of the origin of those jpegs, and more particularly, what museum and wreck site do they depict?

Thanks,

The p-38 strut was recovered off the coast of france and is on display at the French air and space museum...
http://www.museeairespace.fr/

The Electra model 10 strut image was e-mailed to me. I understand it is from a wreck in the united states.

Another link...
http://www.aero-relic.org/English/F-5B_42-68223_St_Exupery/e-00-stexuperyf5b.htm
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« Last Edit: May 04, 2012, 08:25:40 AM by Jeff Victor Hayden »
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Jeff Victor Hayden

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Re: Emily Sikuli and Nessie
« Reply #33 on: May 04, 2012, 08:36:40 AM »


This photo taken at the North American in Inglewood provides a perfect example of the variety of interior finishes employed on but a single aircraft, it this case the B-25. The engine nacelle behind the worker shows two different shades, one on the outer surface of the nacelle, and another on the bulkhead facing the wheel well. The singular cross-member in the middle of the bulkhead partially hiding behind the neck of the worker is in yet another colour, significantly darker than the previous two.  The undercarriage strut is painted in silver.

One area were aluminium lacquer was frequently used was undercarriage legs and  struts. Please note the considerable difference in shine between the painted leg and fork, cast aluminium alloy wheel hub and exposed steel of the oleo. The leg (shown before) is a front undercarriage of the B-25 Mitchell.


http://www.ipmsstockholm.org/magazine/2004/01/stuff_eng_interior_colours_us.htm

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Andrew M McKenna

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Re: Emily Sikuli and Nessie
« Reply #34 on: May 04, 2012, 10:40:43 AM »

Like this? First image is a Lockheed Lightning wheel strut. Second image is a Lockheed Electra 10 wheel strut.

Interesting pictures of rusty things.  Can you apprise us all of the origin of those jpegs, and more particularly, what museum and wreck site do they depict?

Thanks,

I'm pretty sure that the L-10 gear is from the Electra crash in Idaho we surveyed in 2008 or 2009, and the site where the TIGHAR field school will be conducted this coming summer.
http://tighar.org/Projects/Histpres/courses/courseshome.htm

Andrew
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Tom Swearengen

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Re: Emily Sikuli and Nessie
« Reply #35 on: May 04, 2012, 11:22:36 AM »

Andrew, thats how I found the picture.

As for the pictures either showing or not-showing something----guess we'll get to see them in DC.
Tom
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Jeff Victor Hayden

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Re: Emily Sikuli and Nessie
« Reply #36 on: May 04, 2012, 11:44:44 AM »

Not sure which airplane type the rust is on in the second image as it was sent by e-mail with nil description. The other landing gear with rust images are identifiable in the links.
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Malcolm McKay

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Re: Emily Sikuli and Nessie
« Reply #37 on: May 04, 2012, 09:59:23 PM »

....

Emily's account is very interesting - and for the moment it is one of the things that encourages.  I don't see it as evidence at all.  The photo may be evidence - for now though it is just a strong clue, as I see it.  Strong enough that the search is in motion apparently - as seen by those who make such decisions, so we are soon underway.  :)

LTM -

G'day Jeff

Indigenous testimony is always tricky especially in this case where we are dealing with testimony from people who are not themselves indigenous to a place. There are a lot of questions concerning the origins of stories and beliefs in such a society. The Nikumaroroans as we know came as settlers in the PISS initiative to relieve population pressure in the Gilberts. The island itself seems to have been considered a bit marginal from the beginning because of the potable water problem - droughts combined with a rather erratic fresh water lens. This being one of the reasons there appears to be little or no prehistoric interest in the island.

So if we are considering the reliability of testimony from the population especially in regard to events before their arrival and also quite outside their normal technological understanding then we have to tread carefully. There is the notable Ghost Maneaba story http://tighar.org/wiki/The_Ghost_Maneaba which to me clearly indicates that the Gilbertese migrants are trying to create some sense of belonging on Nikumaroro that fits with their traditional ideas and beliefs.

Then we need to consider that the Gilbert Island people may well have had a previous tradition about Earhart and aircraft. This is not as far fetched as it seems because the Gilbert Islands, as recalled by Vidal, were considered by Earhart to be an alternative landing spot if she missed Howland Island which, as we know, she certainly did. We then have the story concerning her fate which originates from the Gilberts - the captured by the Japanese variation, and the sighting of aircraft wreckage and white fliers by the Gilbert Islanders. Now if those stories are true, especially the latter, then they occurred several years before the PISS occupation of Nikumaroro so it is possible that rumours of that event could have been imported to Nikumaroro with the PISS settlers. Just as Nikumaroro is yet to be confirmed as the landing spot, the Gilbert alternative has yet to be ruled out. Then the skeleton is found and we see Gallagher actively investigating it and openly speculating that it might be Earhart. This despite his attempts at some secrecy may have unwittingly provoked speculation amongst the Nikumaroroans who might just have had a recent memory of similar events and speculation elsewhere - news gets around in island societies. This also could feed into a small group of people's desire to create a stronger relation with the island which is their new home.

So then perhaps we have the Earhart connection in the islander tradition originating elsewhere and becomes a part of the cultural traditions of the new settlers, just like the Ghost Maneaba eventually feeding down to children like Emily to whom the stories told by her elders are part and parcel of her islander cultural education. In such a narrative environment then stray bits of rusty wreckage on the reef could achieve quite high significance. Of course we can't say one way or the other but the intellectual cultural heritage of people, especially when we are using here as testimony, is an inordinately complex study. One need only witness how the story of the male and female skeletons develop when we know that in 1940 there is no mention of them. Also I suspect that the islanders would be closer to the administration than suggested because the administration of the island was by mainly by Gilbertese, after the initial settlement. 

In my career I had several experiences of faulty recollection of events in indigenous societies which created unwanted complications in what would otherwise be fairly routine archaeological investigations. Those aside, there is a quite quirky tradition that was recorded in a small aboriginal group in the north of Western Australia concerning Noah's Ark. During WW2 an aircraft had crashed in their tribal country - shortly after the war and after a period of missionary activity this small heap of wreckage was transmogrified into the the resting place of Noah's Ark by some of the converts. And also we have the much more famous cargo cults that sprang up in the islands after WW2 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cargo_cult . So native memory and traditions are quite often not as clear cut or trustworthy as they can appear.

In the end however it really depends upon what is found on the next trip.
« Last Edit: May 04, 2012, 10:32:15 PM by Malcolm McKay »
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Gary LaPook

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Re: Emily Sikuli and Nessie
« Reply #38 on: May 05, 2012, 12:29:51 AM »

G'day Jeff



Then we need to consider that the Gilbert Island people may well have had a previous tradition about Earhart and aircraft. This is not as far fetched as it seems because the Gilbert Islands, as recalled by Vidal, were considered by Earhart to be an alternative landing spot if she missed Howland Island which, as we know, she certainly did. We then have the story concerning her fate which originates from the Gilberts - the captured by the Japanese variation, and the sighting of aircraft wreckage and white fliers by the Gilbert Islanders.
Don't confuse the Gilbert Islands with the Marshall Islands. The Marshall Islands were part of the Japanese Mandated Islands and controlled by the Japanese after 1917. The Gilberts remained in British control until invaded by the Japanese on December 10, 1941.

gl
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Malcolm McKay

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Re: Emily Sikuli and Nessie
« Reply #39 on: May 05, 2012, 12:52:02 AM »

... the captured by the Japanese variation, and the sighting of aircraft wreckage and white fliers by the Gilbert Islanders.
Don't confuse the Gilbert Islands with the Marshall Islands. The Marshall Islands were part of the Japanese Mandated Islands and controlled by the Japanese after 1917. The Gilberts remained in British control until invaded by the Japanese on December 10, 1941.

gl

I'm not - just summarising two other hypotheses very quickly.

There is much going on in the background culture and all migrant societies bring their culture both physical and metaphysical with them. It seems to me the Earhart on Nikumaroro story, especially as related by Emily is best summed up by the latin quote Vires acquirit eundo .
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Gary LaPook

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Re: Emily Sikuli and Nessie
« Reply #40 on: May 05, 2012, 01:01:56 AM »



I'm not - just summarising two other hypotheses very quickly.

There is much going on in the background culture and all migrant societies bring their culture both physical and metaphysical with them. It seems to me the Earhart on Nikumaroro story, especially as related by Emily is best summed up by the latin quote Vires acquirit eundo .

But the "captured by Japs" theory involves Marshallese, not Gilbertese.

gl

« Last Edit: May 05, 2012, 03:05:08 AM by Gary LaPook »
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Malcolm McKay

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Re: Emily Sikuli and Nessie
« Reply #41 on: May 05, 2012, 02:20:08 AM »


But the "captured by Japs" theory involves Marshallese, not Gilbertese.
gl

You are not wrong, nor did I say that the capture by Japanese hypothesis was in the Gilberts - all I did was quickly summarise the two hypotheses that apply to a very large area of the Pacific, and which I admit given the way I expressed it (but then I was thinking about cultural memory rather than the niceties of Pacific geography  :) ) is very misleading. My apologies if my unintended error in expression caused you to misunderstood that, but please do not drag the discussion away from the point I was making about cultural memory and tradition. That is the issue that I find interesting in the Emily Sikuli testimony and one which I feel warrants some consideration - it is in an area where I have some experience. So if I apologise once more for being so brief as to create an inadvertent misunderstanding can you just drop that diversion. It'll only make the thread go off on an unwarranted and fruitlessly pedantic tangent.  :)  However if you feel the need to further beat the dead horse to death then I'll apologise once more and offer a mea culpa in advance.
« Last Edit: May 05, 2012, 02:27:52 AM by Malcolm McKay »
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Gary LaPook

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Re: Emily Sikuli and Nessie
« Reply #42 on: May 05, 2012, 02:59:45 AM »



You are not wrong, nor did I say that the capture by Japanese hypothesis was in the Gilberts -
I'm not trying to beat a dead horse.
You wrote before:

"Then we need to consider that the Gilbert Island people may well have had a previous tradition about Earhart and aircraft. This is not as far fetched as it seems because the Gilbert Islands, as recalled by Vidal, were considered by Earhart to be an alternative landing spot if she missed Howland Island which, as we know, she certainly did. We then have the story concerning her fate which originates from the Gilberts - the captured by the Japanese variation, and the sighting of aircraft wreckage and white fliers by the Gilbert Islanders. "

Are you now saying that the settlers had heard such stories from Marshallese? Was there much contact between the indigenous peoples of the Gilberts and the Marshalls?

gl
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Malcolm McKay

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Re: Emily Sikuli and Nessie
« Reply #43 on: May 05, 2012, 06:47:54 AM »



You are not wrong, nor did I say that the capture by Japanese hypothesis was in the Gilberts -
I'm not trying to beat a dead horse.
You wrote before:

"Then we need to consider that the Gilbert Island people may well have had a previous tradition about Earhart and aircraft. This is not as far fetched as it seems because the Gilbert Islands, as recalled by Vidal, were considered by Earhart to be an alternative landing spot if she missed Howland Island which, as we know, she certainly did. We then have the story concerning her fate which originates from the Gilberts - the captured by the Japanese variation, and the sighting of aircraft wreckage and white fliers by the Gilbert Islanders. "

Are you now saying that the settlers had heard such stories from Marshallese? Was there much contact between the indigenous peoples of the Gilberts and the Marshalls?

gl

In a word no, simply because I have absolutely no idea - happy now? Although it does raise an area that might be investigated if anyone had the energy.

Did you actually read my post which said -

You are not wrong, nor did I say that the capture by Japanese hypothesis was in the Gilberts - all I did was quickly summarise the two hypotheses that apply to a very large area of the Pacific, and which I admit given the way I expressed it (but then I was thinking about cultural memory rather than the niceties of Pacific geography  :)  ) is very misleading. My apologies if my unintended error in expression caused you to misunderstood that, but please do not drag the discussion away from the point I was making about cultural memory and tradition. That is the issue that I find interesting in the Emily Sikuli testimony and one which I feel warrants some consideration - it is in an area where I have some experience. So if I apologise once more for being so brief as to create an inadvertent misunderstanding can you just drop that diversion. It'll only make the thread go off on an unwarranted and fruitlessly pedantic tangent.    However if you feel the need to further beat the dead horse to death then I'll apologise once more and offer a mea culpa in advance.

I might actually start a new thread discussing this one poorly expressed sentence in my post. That way you can continue to dissect it and have an entirely separate thread in which to do it. And I can stick to the more relevant question of the transmission of cultural memory and tradition.

I'm agreeing with you that I made a clumsy mistake in my expression and you were quite right to point it out  - what else can I say?

 :)   
« Last Edit: May 05, 2012, 06:57:27 AM by Malcolm McKay »
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Heath Smith

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Re: Emily Sikuli and Nessie
« Reply #44 on: May 05, 2012, 09:23:31 AM »


I believe that Emily stated that the wreckage (or whatever the object was) was only visible at low tide. This would seem to contradict the oral traditions and ghost stories.

It is also very coincidental that she put the X on the map approximately where 'Nessie' was located.

On balance, I would guess that there was something there.

Perhaps it was aircraft wreckage or something mundane like a cement mixer or pieces of the Norwich City.

Hopefully this new high-resolution image of Nessie will answer that question.
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