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Author Topic: Fred Noonan's fate - strange coordinates update  (Read 26119 times)

Stephen Hinkle

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Fred Noonan's fate - strange coordinates update
« on: June 21, 2011, 02:35:40 PM »

From the article it reads.....
The Southeast Missourian - Jul 8, 1937
  Ray Havens, Conrad creamery worker, phoned the Great Falls Tribune that at 9:40 p.m. Wednesday, he heard a man's voice giving a position and saying "all's well."
   A few minutes later, he said, he picked up a second message, which he gave as follows: "Position 173 west longitude and 5 south latitude."


This is ironically a location between Gardner and Hull Islands.   I wonder if someone from that Coconut Operation on hull tried to rescue him and tried to make it back to Gardner and Failed.   Assuming those coordinates are correct, it seems strange that someone would make a radio call in the middle of the ocean in those days unless he was in a ship or a plane at that time  (after all, radios in those days were the heavy tube type). 

I have attached a picture showing the location.

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Martin X. Moleski, SJ

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Re: Fred Noonan's fate - strange coordinates update
« Reply #1 on: June 21, 2011, 04:32:31 PM »

We discussed the Ray Havens message in "Does your local paper have stories about messages after July 2, 1937?"

Ric and Bob Brandenberg have it in their database of post-loss messages.

They say that the late date makes it suspect.
LTM,

           Marty
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Stephen Hinkle

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Re: Fred Noonan's fate - strange coordinates update
« Reply #2 on: June 22, 2011, 02:59:15 AM »

Actually, the July 8th date does seem plausable and credible to me.   If Fred Noonan arrived on July 2 or July 3 on Gardner, and the distance from Gardner to Hull is 145 miles, this would be 29 miles per day at a boat speed of approx 3.5MPH (considering he only had a non-powered raft and maybe a makeshift paddle made from some sticks or something on the Island, this would take 5 days to get to Hull at this rate.   The people from Hull could have enacted their own power boat back to Gardner, leading to the radio call 6 days later being valid.

As to why Amelia wasn't rescued, may be that she could have died while Fred was away and as the result did not want the news of her death public due to her quest of trying to be the first Woman to complete and around the world flight, and the tragety this would cause.   There is also a possibility that something happened to the boat on the return trip back to Gardner.
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Martin X. Moleski, SJ

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Re: Fred Noonan's fate - strange coordinates update
« Reply #3 on: June 22, 2011, 09:19:07 AM »

This is a copy of information provided by Ric on the old Forum about the status of Hull island during the time of the search:

Thanks, Chris.  I've added a new article to the Wiki.  Remember that you can search TIGHAR's whole website fairly easily for "Hull" and "radio" to try to track down the information about Hull's operations. 

I say "fairly easily," but I don't have time to do it myself just now.   ;)
LTM,

           Marty
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Don Dollinger

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Re: Fred Noonan's fate - strange coordinates update
« Reply #4 on: June 22, 2011, 10:53:51 AM »

Quote
If Fred Noonan arrived on July 2 or July 3 on Gardner, and the distance from Gardner to Hull is 145 miles, this would be 29 miles per day at a boat speed of approx 3.5MPH (considering he only had a non-powered raft and maybe a makeshift paddle made from some sticks or something on the Island, this would take 5 days to get to Hull at this rate.   The people from Hull could have enacted their own power boat back to Gardner, leading to the radio call 6 days later being valid.

Was there a boat on Hull with a radio in it?  Maybe mistaken but thought that the radios in that area "pretty much" land based units.

LTM,

Don
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Don Dollinger

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Re: Fred Noonan's fate - strange coordinates update
« Reply #5 on: June 22, 2011, 12:52:41 PM »

A shot in the dark here.  If FN did not know where they were and used his sextant to ascertain after the crash, would the fact they crossed the International Date Line make any difference wherein it would cause a time issue throwing off his calculations or do they normally time hack to GMT for their calculations and therefore a nonissue?

LTM,

Don
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h.a.c. van asten

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Re: Fred Noonan's fate - strange coordinates update
« Reply #6 on: June 22, 2011, 01:53:58 PM »

Non issue , A/c was flown on GMT schedule within July 2 , 0000 GMT -2400 GMT .
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Martin X. Moleski, SJ

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Re: Fred Noonan's fate - strange coordinates update
« Reply #7 on: June 22, 2011, 01:59:22 PM »

I was going to do that but my mind was telling me that i'd seen it in print recently so I needed to get home and check out my books and other sources. In the end it was 'Finding Amelia'.

Nice work--thanks!
LTM,

           Marty
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Rich Ramsey

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Re: Fred Noonan's fate - strange coordinates update
« Reply #8 on: July 26, 2011, 12:26:45 PM »

So then a question comes to my mind. What did happen to FN? Did he really die at sea or is he berried someplace on the island?  As anyone, ever thought of or is it even possible to bring ground penetrating sonar/Radar? I have seen this done in other "mysteries" and it works very well.
"Hang Tough"
Rich
 
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Martin X. Moleski, SJ

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Re: Fred Noonan's fate - strange coordinates update
« Reply #9 on: July 26, 2011, 12:42:21 PM »

What did happen to FN?

We don't know.

Quote
Has anyone ever thought of or is it even possible to bring ground penetrating sonar/Radar? I have seen this done in other "mysteries" and it works very well.

A unit was used on Niku VI.  The full report is not up yet.


Cf. Niku VI Daily Reports.
LTM,

           Marty
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« Last Edit: July 26, 2011, 12:44:16 PM by Martin X. Moleski, SJ »
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Alex Fox

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Re: Fred Noonan's fate - strange coordinates update
« Reply #10 on: July 27, 2011, 09:36:20 AM »

Quote
Seabotix also provided an autonomous underwater vehicle (AUV) for use in the lagoon.
http://tighar.org/wiki/Niku_VI_%282010%29#Underwater_Survey

Other than the plane itself, is there anything particular they looking for in the lagoon?
#4317
 
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Martin X. Moleski, SJ

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Re: Fred Noonan's fate - strange coordinates update
« Reply #11 on: July 27, 2011, 10:02:50 AM »

Other than the plane itself, is there anything particular they looking for in the lagoon?

Not that they've mentioned.  I don't know what the capabilities were of the vehicle they used.  I doubt that anything smaller than airplane parts would appear--but you don't know until you try, I suppose.
LTM,

           Marty
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Harry Howe, Jr.

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Re: Fred Noonan's fate - strange coordinates update
« Reply #12 on: July 27, 2011, 10:57:03 AM »



Perhaps FN died on Niku, his bones were found by a native in 1940, given to Gallagher, transported to Suva, Fiji, analyzed by Dr. Hoodless and then stored somewhere? 
Then where is Amelia? Perhaps as told in the Kilts story, relating a story told to him by a native, the early settlers of Niku in 1938 found the bones of a female that were gunny-sacked and on a trip to Suva, Fiji with "the Irishman" were tossed overboard because of the superstitions of the native oarsmen?

Curiouser and curiouser. 
No Worries Mates
LTM   Harry (TIGHAR #3244R)
 
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Don Dollinger

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Re: Fred Noonan's fate - strange coordinates update
« Reply #13 on: July 27, 2011, 01:34:17 PM »

Quote
Perhaps as told in the Kilts story, relating a story told to him by a native, the early settlers of Niku in 1938 found the bones of a female that were gunny-sacked and on a trip to Suva, Fiji with "the Irishman" were tossed overboard because of the superstitions of the native oarsmen?

The thing that has always troubled me about the Kilts story is the fact that the natives were supposedly rowing a boat to Fiji?  How far is it from Niku to Fiji?  It seems to me that anytime Gallagher needed to be on another island for whatever reason he was able to arrange transport, so it would seem rather illogical that he (Gallagher) would think that getting the bones to Fiji would be of such an emergency as to go on a rowboat jaunt across the Pacific.  IMHO if it were 1840 then maybe, but in 1940 it sounds rather hokey that even the islanders would attempt that trip by those means. 

LTM,

Don
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Rich Ramsey

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Re: Fred Noonan's fate - strange coordinates update
« Reply #14 on: July 27, 2011, 01:51:16 PM »

I must admit reading this I am getting a little confused. Did they only find one set of bones in 1940 (one skeleton)?  Or did they find two? If they found one, who? Was it AE or FN? What happened to the other one? Why and where did they go? Could it be that AE was able to get off the island and FN stayed behind because he was injured and she died at sea?  I honestly believe you have found the spot where AE and FN went down. Just need that smoking gun to prove it. The more provocative question is what happened to them after? Where is the Skeleton on Fiji? Where is the bones of the other castaway? Did the survivor have the strength and resources to bury him/her? Or where they just simply torn apart like the pig on the beach in the documentary. Sorry to be rambling but I just thought if I put my thoughts out there they might provoke someone to think of something.
"Hang Tough"
Rich
 
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