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Author Topic: FAQ: Colorado / Lambrecht Search, 9 July 1937  (Read 444059 times)

Matt Revington

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Re: FAQ: Colorado / Lambrecht Search, 9 July 1937
« Reply #285 on: August 24, 2012, 11:47:58 AM »

Marty
It would not have lasted long , according to the link the tide is very seldom low enough to expose that reef, within a couple of hours the water was 3 feet deep and with a few days 14 feet, the crew piled out and paddled away in their inflatable life raft.  Interestingly it appears to have had retractable landing gear ( at least I can't see the wheels in the flying picture) and yet opted for the reef landing over the water landing.

Here is a news story of the event
http://epress.anu.edu.au/apem/boats/mobile_devices/ch04s03.html
« Last Edit: August 24, 2012, 11:59:54 AM by Matt Revington »
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Jeff Victor Hayden

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Re: FAQ: Colorado / Lambrecht Search, 9 July 1937
« Reply #286 on: August 24, 2012, 12:53:59 PM »

A bit more info on the General Aircraft ST18 Monospar Croydon, only one was ever built...

http://www.lomcovak.com/museum-monospar.html
This must be the place
 
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Jeff Victor Hayden

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Re: FAQ: Colorado / Lambrecht Search, 9 July 1937
« Reply #287 on: August 24, 2012, 01:06:49 PM »

Being a tidal reef awash at high tide, it was defined as part of the continental shelf

Extract from local fishermens account of the rescue...

http://epress.anu.edu.au/apem/boats/mobile_devices/ch04s03.html

And from the crews perspective...

http://www.flightglobal.com/pdfarchive/view/1936/1936%20-%203384.html

The End : ". . . one of the hardest things 1 ever had to do
was to leave the aircraft stranded, through no fault of its own.
standing up like a monument in the clear atmosphere until the sea eventually claimed it
This must be the place
 
« Last Edit: August 24, 2012, 01:18:39 PM by Jeff Victor Hayden »
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Martin X. Moleski, SJ

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Re: FAQ: Colorado / Lambrecht Search, 9 July 1937
« Reply #288 on: August 24, 2012, 04:39:06 PM »

It would not have lasted long, ...

Here is a news story of the event
http://epress.anu.edu.au/apem/boats/mobile_devices/ch04s03.html

From that story: "We went to have a look at the plane afterwards and measured the wingspan — it was 8 depa [fathoms] long. The frame of the plane is still there to this day. After the time I encountered the plane, I went to Ashmore Reef and Scott Reef twice, so I have been three times. After that I had a rest [from sailing] for a long time, then afterwards I worked as a romusa [involuntary labourer] on the roads in Buton for the Japanese."

Truly fascinating!
LTM,

           Marty
           TIGHAR #2359A
 
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Ric Gillespie

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Re: FAQ: Colorado / Lambrecht Search, 9 July 1937
« Reply #289 on: August 24, 2012, 04:51:09 PM »

Marty,
I wish we could install a buzzer that went off every time somebody wrote "would have" or "would not have."  Those phrases are guesses masquerading as fact.  They are perhaps the biggest trap in historical investigation, second only to accepting uncorroborated anecdotal recollection as fact. How many times have we said that?
We buy them books and buy them books and all they do is eat the covers.
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pilotart

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Re: FAQ: Colorado / Lambrecht Search, 9 July 1937
« Reply #290 on: August 24, 2012, 05:04:16 PM »

Yes it is Marty,

So much parallel to the 'Last Flight' ... but without most of the mystery.

And by replying to a post that was on topic, I created 'thread drift'.

Whoa!  Nice work!  An aircraft of similar size and configuration to the Electra (despite being butt-ugly) lands successfully on a reef worse than Gardner's, loses the tail wheel, and gets washed off the reef and lost?  This needs further investigation.
I had just been skimming through a general Google Search of [landing on a reef] trying to find that quote I had seen on the old forum about Gatty's statement and it was about #220 out of 11,000,000.

Some excellent links provided in recent posts, I especially liked Jeff's 'flightglobal' that shows a chart on the second page.  Heading for the left tip of that large island (Timor) and then got 'vectored' 30* further left...  I can just see Fred looking at that and saying "What were those guys thinking... can't always go by Radio Bearings.  Try common sense."

According to the crew in this article in the 3 Nov '36 Canberra Times; the corrections made by the pilots were first 2*, then 5* and finally 1* (all to the left).  If anyone could have ever used an 'offset' Landfall Procedure....

The radio operator asked Darwin if they were sure correct bearings were given.   
Reply came back "OK., all pilots doubtful of this crossing."

Flightglobal's third page tells of unexpected Compass Deviations on reaching Darwin of greater than 15*, they had a Tech aboard, they could have located a Compass Rose and 'Swung' it.

One factor in common with the AE/FN tragedy was their 'hurry' (to set a record for Australia to England) so there was no time to properly TCB.

Jeff's first link The Outside Lomcovak Club What's in a name...  [link fixed by BT 10:22 EDT 8/24/2012]
Shows the ST-18's 'beauty' best; imagine swept wings in 1935.

A more recent British ship is the Bison Beagle; a twin in the three ton category, that makes a Twin Bonanza look sleek.  But pilots who know them, love them, an outfit in Fort Lauderdale had some (with support) until quite recently.

No doubt the Spitfire's and Mosquito's make up for a lot of ugly British Aircraft.
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Ric,

Lots of posters present lots of guesses (not facts) but it is when they then dig in on those opinions as if they were facts.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

Bruce,

Thank you for doing the link repair for me, sorry I didn't return earlier.

And Marty for 'filling-in' on it as well.
Art Johnson
 
« Last Edit: August 24, 2012, 10:18:45 PM by pilotart »
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Martin X. Moleski, SJ

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Re: FAQ: Colorado / Lambrecht Search, 9 July 1937
« Reply #291 on: August 24, 2012, 05:45:03 PM »

I wish we could install a buzzer that went off every time somebody wrote "would have" or "would not have."

Well, someone with more advanced skills than I have could extend the PHP that drives the Forum to highlight the phrases, maybe making them glow.  But it would take a heck of a lot of Artificial Intelligence to make the penalty really accurate.  Machines have a hard time understanding the context of a statement and judging whether it is a reasonable or unreasonable use of the term.   :(

Quote
Those phrases are guesses masquerading as fact.  They are perhaps the biggest trap in historical investigation, second only to accepting uncorroborated anecdotal recollection as fact. How many times have we said that?
We buy them books and buy them books and all they do is eat the covers.

I have an article in the ''Ameliapedia'' on "coulda, woulda, shoulda arguments."  I guess it's been a while since I linked to it.

Apart from that--and this might be something to take up in the Behavioral Sciences thread--I think that putting ourselves in others' shoes is pretty much a natural way of trying to understand their behavior.  While you were busy, I started a thread on "Analogous reasoning: from 'I would have ...' to 'they must have ...'"  While it is wrong to place too much weight on reasoning analogically, I suspect it is an indispensable part of a thinker's toolkit.

It's no substitute for information, but it is part of how we strive to make sense out of others' behavior.  My Dad cut himself up a lot when he first started using some very sharp Japanese carving knives, but he never stopped using them.  Same with me and some much less exotic X-Acto #11 blades.   ::)

The big issue for me is how well people use this investigative tool (ten-cent term: "heuristic device").  I think all we can really do is to ask people to recognize when they or others are using it.
LTM,

           Marty
           TIGHAR #2359A
 
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C.W. Herndon

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Re: FAQ: Colorado / Lambrecht Search, 9 July 1937
« Reply #292 on: August 24, 2012, 06:50:41 PM »

Art, I have not been able to get your "Outside Lomcovak Club" link to work.

Also, don't you go picking on my Twin Bonanza. I take that personally. :(
Woody (former 3316R)
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Malcolm McKay

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Re: FAQ: Colorado / Lambrecht Search, 9 July 1937
« Reply #293 on: August 24, 2012, 06:54:06 PM »

I'm continually amazed by the depth of wisdom and certainty about what could and couldn't and did and didn't happen expressed by people who have no personal experience with the island and who constantly fault TIGHAR for expressing certainty that we never expressed.

And which is why people like myself question the hypothesis using the evidence that has been submitted so far. It is an interesting conundrum - all the evidence either artifacts or less tangible sources like radio messages, islander recollections etc. all fall short of providing that much sought smoking gun, because they all have equally valid alternative explanations.
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Martin X. Moleski, SJ

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Re: FAQ: Colorado / Lambrecht Search, 9 July 1937
« Reply #294 on: August 24, 2012, 07:12:43 PM »

Art, I have not been able to get your "Outside Lomcovak Club" link to work.

I think it's The Outside Lomcovak Club--Monospar Croydon.
LTM,

           Marty
           TIGHAR #2359A
 
« Last Edit: August 24, 2012, 09:13:03 PM by Martin X. Moleski, SJ »
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C.W. Herndon

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Re: FAQ: Colorado / Lambrecht Search, 9 July 1937
« Reply #295 on: August 24, 2012, 07:36:24 PM »

Thanks Marty, I'll try that.
Woody (former 3316R)
"the watcher"
 
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Gary LaPook

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Re: FAQ: Colorado / Lambrecht Search, 9 July 1937
« Reply #296 on: August 24, 2012, 07:52:26 PM »

Art, I have not been able to get your "Outside Lomcovak Club" link to work.

Also, don't you go picking on my Twin Bonanza. I take that personally. :(
I used to fly a Twin Bonanza, N270. I loved acknowledging vectors from ATC to head west, "right to two seven zero.... two seven zero."

gl
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C.W. Herndon

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Re: FAQ: Colorado / Lambrecht Search, 9 July 1937
« Reply #297 on: August 24, 2012, 08:13:56 PM »

Sounds good to me. I'll bet that threw them for a loop. :D

Mine was actually an Army U-8D. Only used for VIP's and had all that shiney OD, black, white, red and blue paint. Sure was pretty!
Woody (former 3316R)
"the watcher"
 
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pilotart

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Re: FAQ: Colorado / Lambrecht Search, 9 July 1937
« Reply #298 on: August 24, 2012, 09:39:18 PM »

I have never had anything against Twin Bonanza's, it was just what comes to mind when I see a British  Bison :-[ I meant Beagle (which is also an excellent ship, but the Twin-Bo's look a lot nicer).

I'm continually amazed by the depth of wisdom and certainty about what could and couldn't and did and didn't happen expressed by people who have no personal experience with the island and who constantly fault TIGHAR for expressing certainty that we never expressed.

And which is why people like myself question the hypothesis using the evidence that has been submitted so far. It is an interesting conundrum - all the evidence either artifacts or less tangible sources like radio messages, islander recollections etc. all fall short of providing that much sought smoking gun, because they all have equally valid alternative explanations.

Malcom,

I think TIGHAR would be the first to admit that they do not yet have a "Smoking Gun", but they are still looking, despite all the nay-sayers who keep crying "quit".

BTW, what would be your equally valid alternative explanations for radio messages and islander recollections?
Art Johnson
 
« Last Edit: August 24, 2012, 10:05:50 PM by pilotart »
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Malcolm McKay

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Re: FAQ: Colorado / Lambrecht Search, 9 July 1937
« Reply #299 on: August 24, 2012, 10:19:06 PM »


I think TIGHAR would be the first to admit that they do not yet have a "Smoking Gun", but they are still looking, despite all the nay-sayers who keep crying "quit".

BTW, what would be your equally valid alternative explanations for radio messages and islander recollections?

I actually don't think I have ever suggested they quit, all I have ever asked is that the evidence is treated in such a way that its limits are shown rather than the limits of what people would like it to mean. I am not going to reprise my previous arguments on the meaning or lack thereof of the islander recollections and the radio traffic, I suggest you hunt back and look for either the thread on Emily Sikuli and the thread on Betty's Notebook. 
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