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Author Topic: FAQ: Colorado / Lambrecht Search, 9 July 1937  (Read 446472 times)

Gary LaPook

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Re: FAQ: Colorado / Lambrecht Search, 9 July 1937
« Reply #165 on: July 02, 2012, 11:08:40 AM »

Good video Gary. Being both pilot and navigator at the same time has to be tough. Reminds me of the old "one armed paper hanger" quote.

Was the Skycatcher domestic or Chinese?
Another link, this time to using a Pioneer octant, the same kind that Noonan had.

gl
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LEW2mzsygbs&feature=youtu.be

Doesn't show what you were doing nearly so well as the other.

You didn't answer my question about the Skycatcher. I was really curious about whether the Chinese had corrected their problems yet.
Um... I didn't know about any problems, should I be worried?
gl
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C.W. Herndon

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Re: FAQ: Colorado / Lambrecht Search, 9 July 1937
« Reply #166 on: July 02, 2012, 12:47:58 PM »

I don't know. I read in the AOPA e-(what ever they call them) that at least some of the A/C were going to be produced in China and maybe at least some of the parts for airccraft sold here. For some reason production there was delayed. I haven't read the AOPA stuff lately so I don't know the latest. Should keep up I guess. I thought maybe I was going to be able to fly as a sport pilot but that didn't work out so I stopped keeping up with things.

I was hoping you could fill me in.
Woody (former 3316R)
"the watcher"
 
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Tom Swearengen

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Re: FAQ: Colorado / Lambrecht Search, 9 July 1937
« Reply #167 on: July 02, 2012, 04:28:35 PM »

Woody----The FAA 'might' relax things as far as sport pilots are concerned. Looking for a favorable announcement at Oshkosh.
Tom
Tom Swearengen TIGHAR # 3297
 
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Jon Romig

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Re: FAQ: Colorado / Lambrecht Search, 9 July 1937
« Reply #168 on: July 02, 2012, 05:13:02 PM »

Lambrecht reports that he searched "...M’Kean and Gardner Islands, Carondelet Reef and the intervening sea area." He also reports that "...repeated circling and zooming failed to elicit any answering wave from possible inhabitants and it was finally taken for granted that none were there."

Of course we do not know what he means by "repeated." Could it be as little as twice? The dictionary definition suggests three times, but "repeated" is a slippery word. "Finally" is also a slippery, subjective word - a sense of finality could arrive after quite a brief duration, if the searcher felt hurried or skeptical. And "zooming" is great if you are doing it in the right place. But if not, you are certainly wasting precious time, fuel and altitude that you could be using for a broader search. Would zooming really have been necessary? Is the ambient noise level on the island such that only zooming would alert a person? Otherwise, it sounds a lot like joyriding to me.

The pilots were certainly were under many kinds of pressure, like keeping 1,074 other sailors waiting while six men go searching on an apparent long shot (wild goose chase?) for a woman who got lost somewhere in the Pacific. I use the word "woman" consciously in lieu of aviator, as it would be no surprise if the sexism of the era affected the effort expended by the military.
Jon Romig 3562R
 
« Last Edit: July 02, 2012, 05:51:20 PM by Jon Romig »
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Monty Fowler

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Re: FAQ: Colorado / Lambrecht Search, 9 July 1937
« Reply #169 on: July 02, 2012, 05:48:40 PM »

Has anyone ever looked at the distance covered and probable fuel expended on the July 9 search route?

The short answer is, Yes, this has been covered in several TIGHAR analyses, involving courses, distances, times over each island, etc., all of which are freely available on the website for further dissection.

LTM,
Monty Fowler, TIGHAR No. 2189 CER
Ex-TIGHAR member No. 2189 E C R SP, 1998-2016
 
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Jon Romig

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Re: FAQ: Colorado / Lambrecht Search, 9 July 1937
« Reply #170 on: July 02, 2012, 05:50:03 PM »

Thanks, Monty. I will edit my post.
Jon Romig 3562R
 
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C.W. Herndon

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Re: FAQ: Colorado / Lambrecht Search, 9 July 1937
« Reply #171 on: July 02, 2012, 08:07:10 PM »

Woody----The FAA 'might' relax things as far as sport pilots are concerned. Looking for a favorable announcement at Oshkosh.
Tom

Thanks Tom. I look forward to what they have to say.
Woody (former 3316R)
"the watcher"
 
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Gary LaPook

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Re: FAQ: Colorado / Lambrecht Search, 9 July 1937
« Reply #172 on: July 03, 2012, 01:35:18 AM »

Lambrecht reports that he searched "...M’Kean and Gardner Islands, Carondelet Reef and the intervening sea area." He also reports that "...repeated circling and zooming failed to elicit any answering wave from possible inhabitants and it was finally taken for granted that none were there."

Of course we do not know what he means by "repeated." Could it be as little as twice? The dictionary definition suggests three times, but "repeated" is a slippery word. "Finally" is also a slippery, subjective word - a sense of finality could arrive after quite a brief duration, if the searcher felt hurried or skeptical. And "zooming" is great if you are doing it in the right place. But if not, you are certainly wasting precious time, fuel and altitude that you could be using for a broader search. Would zooming really have been necessary? Is the ambient noise level on the island such that only zooming would alert a person? Otherwise, it sounds a lot like joyriding to me.

The pilots were certainly were under many kinds of pressure, like keeping 1,074 other sailors waiting while six men go searching on an apparent long shot (wild goose chase?) for a woman who got lost somewhere in the Pacific. I use the word "woman" consciously in lieu of aviator, as it would be no surprise if the sexism of the era affected the effort expended by the military.


You should also read these threads from their beginnings.

https://tighar.org/smf/index.php/topic,517.0.html

https://tighar.org/smf/index.php/topic,646.0.html

https://tighar.org/smf/index.php/topic,253.0.html

https://tighar.org/smf/index.php/topic,253.msg2550.html#msg2550

gl
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Walter Runck

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Re: FAQ: Colorado / Lambrecht Search, 9 July 1937
« Reply #173 on: July 07, 2012, 09:34:13 PM »

The Coast Guard Addendum to the National SAR plan has different content because the CG has different responsibilities.  USAF is in charge for inland searches using Civil Air Patrol (Air Force Auxiliary - volunteer pilots flying USAF small piston engine aircraft) and active duty assets.  USCG has responsibility for offshore SAR and uses a variety of aircraft and personnel.

Much of the CG stuff is driven by environmental factors and predictions - things floating in the ocean are usually moving, so the focus is on keeping the search pattern in the area of highest POD even if that location changes over time.  Searching a landmass target using only air assets is not a subject of much concentration in the CG documentation.

There are some interesting examples of current DF and computational techniques publicly available.  If you google the term USCG SARCON_11b_Frostv2 and follow the link leading to CG headquarters, you'll find a powerpoint with some recent cases.  I couldn't figure out how to produce a direct link to the file and it's over 4 meg, so you'll have to drag it down yourself. 

I had the opportunity to take the controls on a flight up the relatively undeveloped Georgia coast last week at 1,000 ft. and the recent discussion about landing across the reef sprang to mind.  I'm not a pilot, probably never will be, but I know enough to land on the long axis of the runway.  Couldn't help but think about AE and mentioned it to the pilot/owner, who had just been roped into the Earhart mystery by some of the recent press coverage.  We didn't see any sign of AE or FN, but it was a great day in the air nevertheless.

I think the google earth interpretation of height of eye of Gary's flight (nicely done, BTW) is that this is what his track would look like if you were watching him from 23,000 ft.  I've got to go back and reread this thread with the SAR plan and both addenda nearby.
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Jeff Victor Hayden

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Re: FAQ: Colorado / Lambrecht Search, 9 July 1937
« Reply #174 on: July 15, 2012, 12:06:06 PM »

Getting bored so went through a shed load of photigraphs and images on file. The one that struck me as being strange was the Lambrecht photograph from the 1937 over-flight. The lagoon looked different to all the other photgraphs I have seen of Niku/Gardner and the lagoon, it looked larger/fuller?
The Tatiman passage and Nutiran don't seem to have any of the beachfront that is seen from the blue arrows in the foreground despite there being beachfront at the said locations. It may be the quality of the image which is what I first thought but, the lagoon itself looks larger/fuller as if the surf was up and tide was in and, beachfronts gone.
IMHO of course

This must be the place
 
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Bruce Thomas

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Re: FAQ: Colorado / Lambrecht Search, 9 July 1937
« Reply #175 on: July 15, 2012, 12:18:13 PM »

Getting bored so went through a shed load of photigraphs and images on file. The one that struck me as being strange was the Lambrecht photograph from the 1937 over-flight. The lagoon looked different to all the other photgraphs I have seen of Niku/Gardner and the lagoon, it looked larger/fuller?
The Tatiman passage and Nutiran don't seem to have any of the beachfront that is seen from the blue arrows in the foreground despite there being beachfront at the said locations. It may be the quality of the image which is what I first thought but, the lagoon itself looks larger/fuller as if the surf was up and tide was in and, beachfronts gone.
IMHO of course

I get the impression, from your blue arrows and yellow circle, that you are thinking that the yellow circle is Tatiman Passage -- which it is not.  Your yellow circle is Baureke.  Tatiman is dead center at the far end of the lagoon in the picture.  Don't forget:  The "N" and the arrow drawn on the original photo are incorrect, since the photo was taken looking westward, and your blue arrows are showing the northeast coast near the Seven Site. Or did I misinterpret what you've written?
LTM,

Bruce
TIGHAR #3123R
 
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Jeff Victor Hayden

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Re: FAQ: Colorado / Lambrecht Search, 9 July 1937
« Reply #176 on: July 15, 2012, 01:00:13 PM »

Yes you're right Bruce, should read...
The Bauareke passage is a small inlet into the lagoon, roughly bisecting the lee side of the island. Storm surges may occasionally scour the inlet and deepen it or cause sand to accumulate in it, allowing water to flow through only at high tides. It is not much of a barrier to transit on foot under most conditions; the water is seldom over knee-deep. Under ordinary circumstances it is the only connection between the ocean and the lagoon other than the larger Tatiman Passage near the island's northwest end, so when it becomes blocked, the lagoon has no outflow point and tends to become murky.
This must be the place
 
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Andrew M McKenna

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Re: FAQ: Colorado / Lambrecht Search, 9 July 1937
« Reply #177 on: July 15, 2012, 01:15:03 PM »

The tide is definitely up, but I don't think the lagoon is any fuller than normal.

Interesting that when you look at this photo, you can suddenly understand why folks think there is a south east corner.  Just look at the corner of the island in your yellow circle, sure looks like a corner to me.

Andrew
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Jeff Victor Hayden

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Re: FAQ: Colorado / Lambrecht Search, 9 July 1937
« Reply #178 on: July 15, 2012, 01:21:04 PM »

Here is a top down
This must be the place
 
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Jeff Victor Hayden

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Re: FAQ: Colorado / Lambrecht Search, 9 July 1937
« Reply #179 on: July 15, 2012, 03:44:39 PM »

Notice the missing surfline in the 1937 Lambrecht photo in comparison to the 1938? leander photo plus the apparent difference in the size of the lagoon

This must be the place
 
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