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Author Topic: Coastguard telegram  (Read 8688 times)

Colin Taylor

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Coastguard telegram
« on: April 07, 2023, 05:11:48 AM »

What do we make of this Coastguard telegram mentioned in the film The Oiseau Blanc Mystery? Doesn't it mean the aircraft ditched in the sea? Are there other telegrams? What happened to the wreckage?
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Matt Revington

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Re: Coastguard telegram
« Reply #1 on: April 10, 2023, 01:06:46 PM »

In a Tighar Tracks from 2011 this telegram was discussed in regard to theories put out by the French investigator Decre.
"The latitude/longitude coordinates in the telegram do not describe a point near Portland, Maine. The position is 150 miles east of Norfolk, Virginia – fully one thousand miles from St. Pierre and Miquelon.
The telegram is not a report of a sighting by a Coast Guard officer. Coast Guard Headquarters in Washington received a message from a source identified only as “Rasmussen.” Someone at headquarters typed up the telegram and telephoned it to Naval Communications for transmission to the Coast Guard’s Norfolk Division. Any Coast Guard officer in the Atlantic off Norfolk should have reported a wreckage sighting to Norfolk Division, not Washington. The sighting was probably made and reported by a commercial vessel.
“Rasmussen” did not connect the wreckage with the White Bird. It was someone at Coast Guard headquarters, who came up with that idea. Apparently Norfolk Division didn’t think it was worth investigating further. It’s not hard to understand why.
The sighting did not occur in the Labrador current which flows southwestward along the North American coast as far as Cape Cod. The debris was seen in the Gulf Stream which flows northeastward. It’s difficult to imagine how a floating wing could travel a thousand miles southwestward in a northeasterly flowing current."
https://tighar.org/Publications/TTracks/2011Vol_27/1011.pdf
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Martin X. Moleski, SJ

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Re: Coastguard telegram
« Reply #2 on: April 11, 2023, 01:47:50 PM »

Well done, Matt.

You have got that question covered six ways from Sunday.

I would tip my hat to you, if I was wearing a hat.  Maybe tomorrow or the next day.

You da man!
LTM,

           Marty
           TIGHAR #2359A
 
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Don White

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Re: Coastguard telegram
« Reply #3 on: April 11, 2023, 08:52:54 PM »

Thanks, Matt, for digging this out of the archives. Assuming that this had to have been dealt with already, I had been looking but hadn’t found much as yet.

That report seems plausible at first glance, and I can see why someone would get interested in it, until they actually looked at the map. I don’t think it’s a piece of the White Bird, but I had fun thinking about it.

TIGHAR’s ace in the hole, of course, is that there are actual artifacts found in the pons in Newfoundland, that, while not conclusively proven to be from the White Bird, are also not proven not to be, and plausibly could be. As Ric said once about the objects found on Niku, if that isn’t how they got there, there is another mystery to solve.

That said, probably someone could concoct a theory of how a wing from the White Bird could drift to that location. What happens to things that drift south in the Labrador Current after they reach Cape Cod?

The telegram itself, or rather the message contained within it, is interesting on several counts. The reported sighting could be several possible things:

A wing of the White Bird, in which case we are totally looking in the wrong place (there being no way I can see that a plane crashes in a pond in Newfoundland and its wing ends up in the ocean).
A part of a different airplane, which is presumably checkable against reports of aircraft   losses at the time.
Something else that could be mistaken for an airplane wing.
Something that didn’t exist — i.e., a hoax.

The telegram said “received” but doesn’t way how it was received — by radio, by telegram? Also not said is whether it was sent to USCG HQ as the intended recipient, or was a radio message they simply happened to hear.

Who or what was Rasmussen?

I don’t know what the protocols might have been in 1927 for signing a radio message from a commercial vessel, but it makes sense that there would be more than just the name “Rasmussen” on such a message. Wouldn’t he identify himself more completely, and his ship too?

There is one situation in which a radio message or telegram might be signed so casually, and that is when the sender is someone the recipient knows. So I went looking for USCG ships or officers named Rasmussen. I didn’t find any, but not everything is accessible online, including USCG personnel records from 1927. 

Of course Rasmussen could have intended his message for someone else who would already know who he was, and the USCG just happened to hear it, or someone passed it on to them.

These are some of the questions that French researcher should have asked, and that I would ask him to answer in support of his theory.

LTM,
Don

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Matt Revington

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Re: Coastguard telegram
« Reply #4 on: April 12, 2023, 03:51:53 AM »

In looking for other lost planes that could have been the wreck seen by Rasmussen I found this site
https://aviation-safety.net/
With a big database of air crashes back to 1919.

There are a few possibilities like a crash in Cheasapeake bay in April 1927.  I haven’t had a chance to through them all in detail.

Also there are 2 records of crashes by people preparing for an Atlantic Crossing (neither was over the ocean so they are not candidates but interesting in the context of the time) first Davis and Wooster were killed when their modified, underpowered, plane crashed into a swamp on take off and Byrd who crashed on landing in NJ , he survived but Lindbergh succeeded before he could try again.
https://aviation-safety.net/wikibase/34276

https://aviation-safety.net/wikibase/59936

a news reel about the Davis Wooster crash https://www.britishpathe.com/asset/118647/


« Last Edit: April 13, 2023, 11:46:43 AM by Matt Revington »
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Colin Taylor

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Re: Coastguard telegram
« Reply #5 on: April 13, 2023, 08:49:50 AM »

The thing that struck me was that the debris were found 1000 miles from Newfoundland after 110 days which fits the Labrador current at about 9 NM per day. Part of the Labrador current runs SW inshore of the Gulf Stream and can influence the tides as far south as Cape Hatteras. What other white aircraft could have been found? 
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Matt Revington

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Re: Coastguard telegram
« Reply #6 on: April 13, 2023, 10:32:06 AM »

A white Boeing NB-2 crashed in Chesapeake Bay, April 21 1927,
https://aviation-safety.net/wikibase/281274
Date:   21-APR-1927
Time:   
Type:   Boeing NB-2
Owner/operator:   US Navy
Registration:   A-6793
MSN:   714
Fatalities:   Fatalities: 2 / Occupants: 2
Aircraft damage:   Written off (damaged beyond repair)
Location:   Chesapeake Bay near Fort Wool, VA -     United States of America
Phase:   Take off
Nature:   Military
Departure airport:   Fort Wool, VA
Destination airport:   Hampton Roads, NAS
Narrative:
Hit a fish net pole on take off, crashed and sank.
« Last Edit: April 13, 2023, 10:48:51 AM by Matt Revington »
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Matt Revington

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Re: Coastguard telegram
« Reply #7 on: April 13, 2023, 10:38:52 AM »

Another, not sure it was white, in old black in white pictures it is light coloured

https://aviation-safety.net/wikibase/281277

Date:   27-APR-1927
Time:   
Type:   Naval Aircraft Factory H-16
Owner/operator:   US Navy
Registration:   A-3553
MSN:   
Fatalities:   Fatalities: 4 / Occupants: 4
Aircraft damage:   Written off (damaged beyond repair)
Location:   Chesapeake Bay near New Point Comfort, VA -     United States of America
Phase:   En route
Nature:   Military
Departure airport:   Philadelphia, PA
Destination airport:   Hampton Roads NAS, VA
Narrative:
Lost control at 1200ft after being hit by lightning and crashed into the bay.
« Last Edit: April 13, 2023, 10:49:23 AM by Matt Revington »
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Don White

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Re: Coastguard telegram
« Reply #8 on: April 13, 2023, 11:15:39 AM »

Good job finding some other lost white airplanes.

One thing I hadn't mentioned was that many of the reports of sighting or hearing the White Bird in flight or of seeing wreckage -- reports from so many different places that there is no way to string them all together -- were not made until years later. The USCG message seems to be among the few dating from 1927. I read that there was another report later in the year of wreckage seen in Long Island Sound, which again seems not to have been taken very seriously.

There are actually two databases at https://aviation-safety.net/database/databases.php

ASN ACCIDENT DATABASE: Worldwide accidents and hijackings involving airliners (12+ passengers), corporate jets and military transport aircraft since 1919.

WIKIBASE: Worldwide accidents and incidents involving aircraft, balloons, gliders, gyroplanes, helicopters, ultralights, UAV's and zeppelins/airships since 1905.

So I looked in the WikiBase.

Geographic area: Given how far something could drift, I looked at everything to the north, south and east of the reported position.

Time span: The message was received in August 1927, so I also looked as late as that month. The message says that the object did not appear to have marine growth on it, suggesting it might not have been in the water long.

Unfortunately the entries are often lacking details and the links to the source are often dead.

Some additional candidates:
https://aviation-safety.net/wikibase/106137: An SE5 lost from Fort Eustis, VA (Newport News area) on March 31, 1927.

Here is a crash that while not a candidate, is nonetheless interesting:
https://aviation-safety.net/wikibase/269950: A Standard J-1 Seaplane belonging to the Maine Forestry Dept that struck submerged rocks in a remote lake while taking off, 5 September 1927, killing two of the three people aboard. Could some memory of this have influenced the stories circulating in Maine?

There are some later losses as well in the right areas, but they are outside the date range.

LTM
Don
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Matt Revington

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Re: Coastguard telegram
« Reply #9 on: April 13, 2023, 11:33:20 AM »

I was looking at some of those reports too, since the wreckage was spotted in the Gulf stream it could have come from the Gulf of Mexico or the Florida area.  There are many in that area in the databases but none that I found  in that region reported a loss over water but as you said the reports usually lack details
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Martin X. Moleski, SJ

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Re: Coastguard telegram
« Reply #10 on: April 16, 2023, 06:08:30 AM »

Who or what was Rasmussen?

A reader of the Forum suggested to me in an email that it might be Knud Rasmussen:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Knud_Rasmussen

"Knud Johan Victor Rasmussen (7 June 1879 – 21 December 1933)[2] was a Greenlandic–Danish polar explorer and anthropologist. He has been called the "father of Eskimology" (now often known as Inuit Studies or Greenlandic and Arctic Studies) and was the first European to cross the Northwest Passage via dog sled. He remains well known in Greenland, Denmark and among Canadian Inuit."
LTM,

           Marty
           TIGHAR #2359A
 
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Matt Revington

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Re: Coastguard telegram
« Reply #11 on: April 16, 2023, 08:38:13 AM »

In the book at this link
https://books.google.ca/books?id=idhLAQAAMAAJ&pg=PA189&lpg=PA189&dq=rasmussen+norfolk+virginia+1920s&source=bl&ots=EBrv4mCQVS&sig=ACfU3U3E-NrDMOC3yJmL5I-xwS6Tj2OfEQ&hl=en&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwjXgNSzzq7-AhV3MDQIHeZACYY4HhDoAXoECAUQAw#v=onepage&q=rasmussen%20norfolk%20virginia%201920s&f=false

There is listed an oyster fishing vessel based in Newport News Va called the A. Rasmussen in 1921. I don’t know if oyster fishermen go out far enough from shore to be in the Gulf Stream
« Last Edit: April 16, 2023, 08:55:28 AM by Matt Revington »
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Don White

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Re: Coastguard telegram
« Reply #12 on: April 17, 2023, 08:37:59 PM »

Good work finding the boat and the man named Rasmussen.

I doubt that this boat was the source of the report. The boat would have been 12 years old by then, if it still existed. Oysters live in shallow water, so an oyster boat would not normally venture far offshore. And a radio was still big, bulky, and has to be operated by an expert--in Morse Code--so, unlikely to have been on a small boat.

The man, however, might be our reporter, if he was that far south at the time. Maybe he is well enough documented to find out where he was in August 1932.

LTM,
Don
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Matt Revington

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Re: Coastguard telegram
« Reply #13 on: April 18, 2023, 03:39:29 AM »

I am not sure what the relevance of August 1932 is, the telegram is from 1927.  I found the 1927 listings and the A. Rasmussen is still listed (it was built in 1890) it is a 10 ton 50 ft vessel, no call sign is listed so it didn’t have a radio.  There is also a 45ft freight vessel operating out of Maryland called the Dora Rasmussen, it too has no  call sign.  A radio would make things easier but they also could make reports by phone  when they came into ports.
« Last Edit: April 18, 2023, 03:43:57 AM by Matt Revington »
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Ricker H Jones

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Re: Coastguard telegram
« Reply #14 on: April 18, 2023, 07:34:55 AM »

One of the links in the Wikipedia article on Rasmussen looks like it may be of interest.


Aviation Studies in Greenland Report by Knud Rasmussen et al. at Dartmouth College Library
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