Print

[Friend Weller]

I agree.  Good catch.  There is still the issue of Feature "A". It's not present in either of the other photos and Photo Three definitely post-dates both of the others.  Is "A" something that was added early on but removed before the Hooven installation in October 1936?  Or is it something that was added after the Hooven installation but removed before March 12, 1937 (the date of Photo Three)?

From a purely personal point of view....I know that my pinkie toe, either in a boot or a shoe, would very likely geo-locate feature "A" rather quickly.  Perhaps it was removed as it was found to be a trip point or was in a location that caused it to be frequently stepped upon (either the possible connector or the possible grounding lug) resulting in damage, disconnection, or source of injury/hazard???

A question:  I'm not seeing "A" in either the "first" or "third" photos on page one of this thread due to camera angle or photo composition.  Am I missing something or are these two photos cropped preventing me from seeing that lower corner of the transmitter and/or feature "A"?  Or do I need new reading glasses?

[Ric Gillespie]

Am I missing something?

No, I am.  A brain.  I meant to say feature "B", the dial-like thing on the wall.

[Friend Weller]

No, I am.  A brain.  I meant to say feature "B", the dial-like thing on the wall.

   I've have those days.....everyday!!

As mentioned up-thread, "B" very well could be a remote headphone/microphone/Morse key connection point or junction/switch box of some sort.  It appears to have 2-3 cables (wiring or something) connected into it. 

Could it be related in some way to "E",  the possible "wiring loom" in the "third" photo?? 

Another thought which I'm sure has been covered in the past:  How was the deployment and retrieval of the trailing wire antenna controlled?  I haven't seen how that worked, just that it was removed before the second attempt.  If electrically, perhaps "B" is an extend/retract control?  Forgive me if I've missed that bit of detail....

[Harbert William Davenport]

In Photo One, showing the Hooven DF gear, at the left edge the portside cabin window seems to be lacking that bar or stringer.  The Timeline for Dec 10, under the photo of the Cord and AE holding the cabin door partly open, with the dorsal antenna mast clearly visible, states the following:
"The bar through the cabin window (actually a stringer) was removed in January 1937 at the same time windows were added to the cabin door and right-side lavatory area."
If that's correct, it narrows down the time period for Photo One to the time after the navigation windows were installed.
   I keep wanting to date Photo Two, with its Feature B round gizmo, as earlier than Photo One, which lacks that gizmo, though I cannot yet prove that.  But there was ample time in December for Photo Two to be earlier, even if the dark vertical wire is lead-in from the dorsal antenna that was installed some time before that Cord photo in Burbank.

[William G Torgerson]

My eyes are getting old ..... but what do you think that the object crossing the upper left corner of the 'navigation' window might be in the  'Miami taxi wire.png'? It looks like it crosses the same area of window that the rear connected antenna lead did in previous photos. Curiousier and curiousier.

Bill Torgerson

[James Champion]

To Herbert William Davenport on Reply #27 - OK, I see what you mean about an optical illusion. The line that appears to be going aft-to-forward is actually going left-to-right and is the edge of the crawl-over. I also see what you mean about possible headphones on Amelia.

Now for "B" in photo 2. I keep trying to think of what might be needed in that general area. Could 'the dial-like thing' be an Aux Battery disconnect switch? The location seems unusual unless it was meant to be reachable from the crawl-over without going all the way back to the battery.

[Ric Gillespie]

Another thought which I'm sure has been covered in the past:  How was the deployment and retrieval of the trailing wire antenna controlled?  I haven't seen how that worked, just that it was removed before the second attempt.  If electrically, perhaps "B" is an extend/retract control?

I think that's a pretty good guess. The trailing wire originally deployed through the extreme end of the tail as shown in the photo below taken in New Jersey in February 1937. Some time before March 14 it was moved forward and deployed through a mast in the belly just forward of the cabin door.  It was a bad set-up, requiring the wire to bend 90° when deployed.  We don't know whether the wire was reeled out mechanically or electrically.  My guess would be the original installation was mechanical and the second was electrical.  If my guess is right, and if "B" is an electrical extend/retract control, it dates the photo to after AE's return to Burbank in February but before the navigation table was installed.

[Ric Gillespie]

My eyes are getting old ..... but what do you think that the object crossing the upper left corner of the 'navigation' window might be in the  'Miami taxi wire.png'? It looks like it crosses the same area of window that the rear connected antenna lead did in previous photos.

I'm confused.  'Miami taxi wire.png' shows the patch, not the navigation window and I don't see an object crossing the upper left corner of the patch.  The patch is new and shiny, so we see reflections of the people watching the plane taxi out.

[Ric Gillespie]

When we first found Artifact 2-2-V-1, there was a length of insulated wire jammed in a tear in the metal.

Returning for a moment to Artifact 2-2-V-1a (which will soon get its own thread), way back in January 1992 aircraft radio historian Norman Chipps of Chipps Research Ltd in Hyattsville, MD looked at photos of the wire and wrote:
"In most cases the [antenna] wire, until later days, was a heavy rubber and varnished cotton covered small gauge conductor which was very flexible. The fairlead wire (wire inside of the aircraft to connect receivers to antennas ) was a small conductor cable with smaller diameter cloth and rubber covering.  The 22 gauge wire you have found entangled in artifact 2-2-V-1 could possibly be from the external lead or the internal fairlead. Normally electrical lighting wiring and electrical appliance wiring is supported every 6 to 18 inches but the wire you have has no evidence of mounting brackets unless it had been earlier removed by a person in need of a piece of wire or a salvor trying to recover usable items from a wrecked aircraft."

It was Norm who provided the 1938 and 1941 wire samples the NTSB lab compared to 2-2-V-1a.  They found that the artifact matched the 1938 sample.  My question is this:
In his letter, Norm specifically mentions "The fairlead wire (wire inside of the aircraft to connect receivers to antennas )."
That may be because, at that time, we were speculating that 2-2-V-1 came from the belly of the Electra in the vicinity of the lead-in to the receiver under the copilots seat.  But is there any reason to think the fairlead connecting the belly antenna to the receiver would be any different from the fairlead connecting the dorsal vee to the transmitter?
I'm trying to get back in touch with Norm but we haven't heard from him in many years. He was no spring chicken in 1992. His cell phone number is still active so that's a good sign. I left a message.

[Christian Stock]

Mr Chipps lived in Wickenburg, AZ, as of 2014.

When we first found Artifact 2-2-V-1, there was a length of insulated wire jammed in a tear in the metal.

Returning for a moment to Artifact 2-2-V-1a (which will soon get its own thread), way back in January 1992 aircraft radio historian Norman Chipps of Chipps Research Ltd in Hyattsville, MD looked at photos of the wire and wrote:
"In most cases the [antenna] wire, until later days, was a heavy rubber and varnished cotton covered small gauge conductor which was very flexible. The fairlead wire (wire inside of the aircraft to connect receivers to antennas ) was a small conductor cable with smaller diameter cloth and rubber covering.  The 22 gauge wire you have found entangled in artifact 2-2-V-1 could possibly be from the external lead or the internal fairlead. Normally electrical lighting wiring and electrical appliance wiring is supported every 6 to 18 inches but the wire you have has no evidence of mounting brackets unless it had been earlier removed by a person in need of a piece of wire or a salvor trying to recover usable items from a wrecked aircraft."

It was Norm who provided the 1938 and 1941 wire samples the NTSB lab compared to 2-2-V-1a.  They found that the artifact matched the 1938 sample.  My question is this:
In his letter, Norm specifically mentions "The fairlead wire (wire inside of the aircraft to connect receivers to antennas )."
That may be because, at that time, we were speculating that 2-2-V-1 came from the belly of the Electra in the vicinity of the lead-in to the receiver under the copilots seat.  But is there any reason to think the fairlead connecting the belly antenna to the receiver would be any different from the fairlead connecting the dorsal vee to the transmitter?
I'm trying to get back in touch with Norm but we haven't heard from him in many years. He was no spring chicken in 1992. His cell phone number is still active so that's a good sign. I left a message.

[Ric Gillespie]

Thanks Christian.  I just got off the phone with Norm.  He's alive and kicking and eager to help.

[Daniel R. Brown]

How was the deployment and retrieval of the trailing wire antenna controlled?  I haven't seen how that worked, just that it was removed before the second attempt.  If electrically, perhaps "B" is an extend/retract control?  Forgive me if I've missed that bit of detail....

Does this 3/3/37 photo show the trailing antenna reel and weight? Could be a small electric motor directly in front of the reel on the floor. (Hope it's not the aileron trim cable again...).

Dan Brown, #2408

[Ric Gillespie]

Does this 3/3/37 photo show the trailing antenna reel and weight? Could be a small electric motor directly in front of the reel on the floor. (Hope it's not the aileron trim cable again...).

I knew we had that photo but I couldn't find it.  Thanks. Yes, that has to be the tailing wire in the new location, but apparently the mast hasn't been installed yet. That's the ball weight that goes on the end of the wire in the foreground. The rig is anchored to the auxiliary batter box.  Gotta be an electric motor.  The reel of wire is too close to the floor for there to a be manual crank.

[Daniel R. Brown]

The third photo was taken March 12, 1937. The navigator's table has been installed (you can see the "goose neck" of the lamp) but features "B" and "C" are no longer present.  Also, the fuel tank vent line manifold "D" has been wrapped with wire(?) and there's a bundle of wire or cable "E" running to either the transmitter or the aft battery.

While there are a lot of eyes on this, please consider also this photo from approximately 3/3/37 showing electronics on top of the R1 fuel tank. In the 3/12/37 photo there seem to be cables extending from that same apparatus across the doorframe into the cockpit. What is that apparatus?

Dan Brown, #2408

[Christian Stock]

If you look at the wiring bundle just behind the black box behind the copilot, you can see that a thick black cable enters the bundle at that point. Some of the other photos in this thread show that this black cable leads to the 3 steam gauges at the Navigator station. The 3 gauges appear to be altitude, fuel quantity (?), and airspeed, which is seen next to Amelia in the 3-3-37 photo along with the trailing antenna rig.

Perhaps this box feeds the fuel gauges fore and aft, or it is some sort of "repeater" junction box for all of the gauges in back?

The third photo was taken March 12, 1937. The navigator's table has been installed (you can see the "goose neck" of the lamp) but features "B" and "C" are no longer present.  Also, the fuel tank vent line manifold "D" has been wrapped with wire(?) and there's a bundle of wire or cable "E" running to either the transmitter or the aft battery.

While there are a lot of eyes on this, please consider also this photo from approximately 3/3/37 showing electronics on top of the R1 fuel tank. In the 3/12/37 photo there seem to be cables extending from that same apparatus across the doorframe into the cockpit. What is that apparatus?

Dan Brown, #2408