Advanced search  
Pages: 1 2 3 [4] 5   Go Down

Author Topic: So Where Are Fred's Remains?  (Read 25691 times)

Mark Appel

  • T3
  • ***
  • Posts: 112
Re: So Where Are Fred's Remains?
« Reply #45 on: March 18, 2018, 05:08:34 PM »

I been a-thinkin'... hope that doesn't alarm anyone:)

Fred's delirium was heard in the background on at least one of the distress transmissions. That means Fred was in the plane while injured. In turn, that offers only three possibilities:

1) Fred was injured on landing and remained in the plane--unable to exit and return.

2) Fred was injured after exiting the aircraft but subsequently returned to the aircraft and was moaning in distress as Amelia broadcast.

3) Fred was injured on landing and exited the plane but subsequently returned to it and moaned in distress as Amelia broadcast.

The fact he was moaning in distress in the plane as Amelia broadcast, suggests to me that it is unlikely he ever exited the plane, as Amelia could not extract him unassisted and he is unlikely to have been able to help himself. It seems even more unlikely that if he was he badly injured but somehow able to exit the plane, that he would return to it in a state of delirium.

I'm still thinking old Fred's with the Electra.

Am I missing something? Did I make something up? (I do that occasionally).


"Credibility is Everything"
 
Logged

Ric Gillespie

  • Executive Director
  • Administrator
  • *
  • Posts: 5799
  • "Do not try. Do or do not. There is no try" Yoda
Re: So Where Are Fred's Remains?
« Reply #46 on: March 19, 2018, 07:25:11 AM »

The fact he was moaning in distress in the plane as Amelia broadcast, suggests to me that it is unlikely he ever exited the plane, as Amelia could not extract him unassisted and he is unlikely to have been able to help himself.

Which of the entries in Betty's Notebook do you interpret as moaning?
Logged

Mark Appel

  • T3
  • ***
  • Posts: 112
Re: So Where Are Fred's Remains?
« Reply #47 on: March 19, 2018, 05:55:41 PM »

The fact he was moaning in distress in the plane as Amelia broadcast, suggests to me that it is unlikely he ever exited the plane, as Amelia could not extract him unassisted and he is unlikely to have been able to help himself.

Which of the entries in Betty's Notebook do you interpret as moaning?

I'm paraphrasing. And certainly, you know the chapter and verse far better than I. "Moaning, delirium." I remember it as suggesting he was out of it and, or, severely injured. Seemingly unaware or detached from Amelia's activities.

Do I have that wrong? Now you're making me go do my own research. Hate that.
"Credibility is Everything"
 
Logged

Bill Mangus

  • TIGHAR member
  • *
  • Posts: 370
Re: So Where Are Fred's Remains?
« Reply #48 on: March 19, 2018, 06:38:56 PM »

I'd like to suggest that Fred's mental state of high anxiety or delirium could have been caused by some combination of head injury, dehydration, syndrome and lack of sleep not just one thing.  Not a doctor but dehydration and a probable concussion don't go together well.
Logged

Mark Appel

  • T3
  • ***
  • Posts: 112
Re: So Where Are Fred's Remains?
« Reply #49 on: March 19, 2018, 07:27:08 PM »

The fact he was moaning in distress in the plane as Amelia broadcast, suggests to me that it is unlikely he ever exited the plane, as Amelia could not extract him unassisted and he is unlikely to have been able to help himself.

Which of the entries in Betty's Notebook do you interpret as moaning?

OK. So in Betty's notebook she refers to Fred as complaining about his head. Complaining about the heat and wanting to get out. There are also two references to his "yelling" which suggests to me some kind of delirium or extreme mental state.

Betty also indicates he exited the aircraft.

It still seems he was badly injured on landing and possibly not in his right mind. Whether he got out of the aircraft, that is, whether he was ambulatory, I have no good guess. But it seems certain he wouldn't have reentered the Electra in a badly injured and or delirious state.
"Credibility is Everything"
 
Logged

Mark Appel

  • T3
  • ***
  • Posts: 112
Re: So Where Are Fred's Remains?
« Reply #50 on: March 19, 2018, 09:06:49 PM »

The fact he was moaning in distress in the plane as Amelia broadcast, suggests to me that it is unlikely he ever exited the plane, as Amelia could not extract him unassisted and he is unlikely to have been able to help himself.

Which of the entries in Betty's Notebook do you interpret as moaning?

And another thing... If Fred was in his right mind, why would he be continuously disrupting Amelia's emergency broadcasts? Wouldn't he be doing everything he could to assist in describing their location--especially as "location" was his job?
"Credibility is Everything"
 
Logged

Ric Gillespie

  • Executive Director
  • Administrator
  • *
  • Posts: 5799
  • "Do not try. Do or do not. There is no try" Yoda
Re: So Where Are Fred's Remains?
« Reply #51 on: March 20, 2018, 08:22:37 AM »

So in Betty's notebook she refers to Fred as complaining about his head.

Nowhere in Betty's transcription is there a reference to Fred complaining about his head. 

Betty also indicates he exited the aircraft.

Nowhere in Betty's transcription is there a reference to Fred exiting the aircraft.

In Betty's transcription of what she heard, it is apparent the Fred was acting irrationally and was eager to exit the aircraft.  A head injury was Betty's interpretation of the cause of Fred's strange behavior.

Some of the credible post loss messages heard by Itasca were in a man's voice. See Message 76 and 82 on July 4.  Also Message 102,114,139 and 140 on July 5.  Also Message 161 on July 6
Logged

Mark Appel

  • T3
  • ***
  • Posts: 112
Re: So Where Are Fred's Remains?
« Reply #52 on: March 20, 2018, 03:11:41 PM »

So in Betty's notebook she refers to Fred as complaining about his head.

Nowhere in Betty's transcription is there a reference to Fred complaining about his head. 

Betty also indicates he exited the aircraft.

Nowhere in Betty's transcription is there a reference to Fred exiting the aircraft.

In Betty's transcription of what she heard, it is apparent the Fred was acting irrationally and was eager to exit the aircraft.  A head injury was Betty's interpretation of the cause of Fred's strange behavior.


Thanks for the links; I reviewed them. And to be more precise, my information came from Betty's latter-day comments associated with entries in her notebook.

https://tighar.org/Projects/Earhart/Archives/Documents/Notebook/notebook.html

Betty's entries and her comments:

"come here just a moment..."  in here he kept wanting to get out of the plane because it was so hot and she kept calling him back.

"let me out of here..."   in here he complained of his head

"waters knee deep – let me out... " AE and man––in here he was yelling

"I can't make it..."   He was yelling again.

"are you here..."   He had got out and she was getting ready to go too


In these extreme circumstances, it is far more likely that Fred should be the one on the radio, not Amelia. Why wasn't he? Clearly Fred is in some kind of extreme distress. He is not being helpful at a time when his professional input was critical. Rather he's not interested in helping; clearly he's another source of Amelia's stress.

In these extreme circumstances, it is far more likely that given his experience and professional expertise, Fred should be the one on the radio, not Amelia. Why wasn't he?

And in any event, if Fred participated in any post-loss transmissions, he did so when he was on the plane. There are only two possibilities here: Either he stayed on the plane. Or he exited the plane and returned to it--perhaps multiple times-- even though he'd been acting irrationally and in considerable distress upon landing.

If he did return to the aircraft multiple times, he was ambulatory. There's no way Amelia could have taken him in and out of the Electra if he was anything near dead weight. His behavior in the cockpit upon landing indicates a severely injured person--calling into question his ability to perform any sustained physical or mental activity.

Betty also comments that she thought Amelia referred to the water rising. If Fred succeeded in exiting the aircraft, was he in any shape to even make it through rising water to the beach? And if he did succeed in getting to the beach, how ambulatory was he subsequently?

Again. It's hard for me to imagine Amelia assisting a severely injured Fred in and out of the aircraft just to make minimal contributions to distress calls.

So whaddya think?

"Credibility is Everything"
 
« Last Edit: March 20, 2018, 03:13:26 PM by Mark Appel »
Logged

Ric Gillespie

  • Executive Director
  • Administrator
  • *
  • Posts: 5799
  • "Do not try. Do or do not. There is no try" Yoda
Re: So Where Are Fred's Remains?
« Reply #53 on: March 20, 2018, 04:32:39 PM »

Thanks for the links; I reviewed them. And to be more precise, my information came from Betty's latter-day comments associated with entries in her notebook.

That's right, and it's an important distinction. Betty's original transcription is a primary source record.  The notations she made in the notebook later and her comments to TIGHAR are anecdotal recollections colored by decades orf reminiscing about the event.  They may be absolutely accurate - or not.  There is no way to know.

In these extreme circumstances, it is far more likely that Fred should be the one on the radio, not Amelia. Why wasn't he?

If Fred had any experience at all with radio it has escaped my notice.  His professional expertise was in navigation.  Your comment comes dangerously close to being a sexist assumption that the man would surely take over in an emergency.

Clearly Fred is in some kind of extreme distress. He is not being helpful at a time when his professional input was critical. Rather he's not interested in helping; clearly he's another source of Amelia's stress. 

Agreed.

And in any event, if Fred participated in any post-loss transmissions, he did so when he was on the plane.

Agreed.

There are only two possibilities here: Either he stayed on the plane. Or he exited the plane and returned to it--perhaps multiple times-- even though he'd been acting irrationally and in considerable distress upon landing.

You were good up until "even though he'd been acting irrationally and in considerable distress upon landing."  The transmission Betty heard seems to have been made on July 5.  Fred's irrational behavior began prior to that time but Betty's transcription gives us no clue as to when that might have been.   The explanation that he hurt his head on landing is a possibility that is completely of our own invention.  Mabel Larremore said she heard Amelia, on the night of July 2, say that her navigator was seriously injured - but, again, that's an anecdotal recollection. Was she remembering correctly?  No way to know.

If he did return to the aircraft multiple times, he was ambulatory. There's no way Amelia could have taken him in and out of the Electra if he was anything near dead weight.

Agreed.

His behavior in the cockpit upon landing indicates a severely injured person--calling into question his ability to perform any sustained physical or mental activity.

His behavior in the cockpit suggests a seriously irrational person but he can clearly move around. "come here just a moment"  "where are you going" "what are you doing"
Forget Betty's impressions and recollections for a moment.  Is there anything in Betty's transcription that precludes Fred from being simply drunk on his ass?

Betty also comments that she thought Amelia referred to the water rising. If Fred succeeded in exiting the aircraft, was he in any shape to even make it through rising water to the beach? And if he did succeed in getting to the beach, how ambulatory was he subsequently?

No way to know.

Again. It's hard for me to imagine Amelia assisting a severely injured Fred in and out of the aircraft just to make minimal contributions to distress calls.

Agreed, and yet Fred was undoubtedly in the aircraft at the time Betty made her call.  So logically, either he stayed in the sweltering aircraft even though he was ambulatory enough to move around, or he could transit back and forth to the shore without assistance.
« Last Edit: March 20, 2018, 04:34:23 PM by Ric Gillespie »
Logged

Bill Mangus

  • TIGHAR member
  • *
  • Posts: 370
Re: So Where Are Fred's Remains?
« Reply #54 on: March 21, 2018, 10:58:45 AM »

What are the chances they stayed in the aircraft overnight simply because they could sleep, although badly,  unmolested by the crabs.  Near dawn/after sunrise they retreated to shore depending upon the state of the tide.  Haven't looked that close at day/night and tide cycle to see if there's any correlation there but this makes sense.

May also bear on why they didn't empty the aircraft of everything that wasn't bolted or strapped down.  AE, ever the optimist, sure of her abilities and fully expecting to be rescued at any minute just didn't see the situation for what it was -- an extreme survival situation.

Can't you just hear her thinking, "If they'll bring me a little gas, I can fly out of here."
« Last Edit: March 21, 2018, 11:18:24 AM by Bill Mangus »
Logged

Don White

  • TIGHAR member
  • *
  • Posts: 52
  • Tighar Member #4989A
Re: So Where Are Fred's Remains?
« Reply #55 on: March 21, 2018, 12:27:51 PM »

Often, as I sit in my comfortable home reading about Amelia and Fred, I imagine what it might have been like to be on that island at night, in darkness and isolation more complete than most of ever experience, with real nightmare monsters in it, and not knowing if or when help might appear. Under those conditions, sleeping in the plane (while it was available) might have felt a lot safer than on the ground. I think of the airplane as a less safe place to stay due to the risk of it being carried away by water -- but would they have realized that, or felt more secure in the known environment that they had brought with them?

As for the gear not being unloaded -- an assumption based on it not having been found -- either they were unable to unload it (for whatever reason) or chose not to. Or they did, and it hasn't been found yet, or is no longer findable. If the people living there later found any of it, they would likely have made use of it themselves, and perhaps left no identifiable traces of it for later searchers.
Logged

Margaret Sanders

  • T1
  • *
  • Posts: 27
  • Just a regular girl here!
Re: So Where Are Fred's Remains?
« Reply #56 on: March 21, 2018, 04:07:21 PM »

So, I'm not an expert but I am a mom to two children. Every time I think of the post-loss transmissions with AE asking FN questions like, "Where are you going?" (paraphrase), I think of a parent with a young child. I remember asking questions like that numerous times while herding cats...er, I mean keeping my children sitting next to me in, say, a waiting room. Picture a mom completing paperwork or some other task requiring focus, while also making sure her child doesn't spill all of the old magazines all over the floor. She has led the child by the hand and kept him sitting down in the chair, even though he may be trying to get down.

What I mean by this is that someone can be distracted and hurting but still compliant enough part of the time. My opinion is that AE was thrust into a caretaker role. I believe that, just as a mom wouldn't leave her small child home alone, AE wouldn't want to leave FN at a campsite unattended. I believe she'd bring him to the plane each time she used the radio. Just like a three-year-old, FN had no choice but to go along.

I say this because of debates about whether AE would want to take FN with her each time she went to the plane. She likely didn't want to but had to for his own safety. There was no babysitter available! 🤔
I'm no expert; just happy to be here.👀
#4777A
 
Logged

Krystal McGinty-Carter

  • TIGHAR member
  • *
  • Posts: 141
  • Kilo Mike
Re: So Where Are Fred's Remains?
« Reply #57 on: March 21, 2018, 04:22:32 PM »

Is it possible that Fred's "delirium" wasn't actually delirium at all? There has been lots of speculation that Fred had suffered a head injury but it was stated that her navigator "was severely injured" and only alluded to a head injury.  Lots of ways to get hurt in a bad landing. Could it be possible that his agitation, abruptness, and storming out of the cockpit were actually just a hot, tired, thirsty, hungry, hurt and frightened navigator, who recognized the full gravity of the situation,  trying to reason with a pilot who is playing with the radios under false hope of an imminent rescue rather than grabbing what they could and boot scooting out of there while they still could? Could Amelia, in fact,  have been the delirious one?

She had a lot more invested, a lot more at stake, and a lot more to lose if they lost the airplane. She might have been reluctant to let Fred salvage anything from the airframe or engines in case of rescue, even at their own peril. Historically, plane crash survivors who go down in remote areas will tear the fuselage apart to salvage anything useful. Its odd that you found no real evidence of an airplane itself at the beach or the Seven Site. There are a heck of a lot of useful (and portable) things in an airplane, even if they did unload everything that wasn't nailed down in New Guinea. I would be draining oil and gas for fires, tearing seat covers off, ripping the padding out of seats, busting out windows, tearing out wires...The plane isn't going anywhere. Might as well use it to survive.... unless, of course, you have mortgaged your future on that airplane and stand to lose everything if you cant get it recovered intact. Is it possible that Fred, having had enough of pleading with her and enough of her trying to preserve the airplane when it was obvious that rescue wasn't coming, was now telling her in no shortage of words "The bloody plane is sinking. Quit mucking around with the radios and get out!"  It might explain how Amelia got a supposedly "delirious" Fred out of the cockpit before the airplane went off the reef and why no equipment from the airplane has been found.

We know he was alive at least for the first few days. If he was off his rocker from a head injury, would Amelia be able or willing to shuttle him back and forth across a slippery reef at night in the dark? What I "hear" from Betty's transcripts is two people arguing on a hot mic, not necessarily someone trying to keep a delirious navigator under control. Its seems more plausible, to me anyway, that Fred was angry, she was panicking, and they were butting heads over what to do. 
Logged

Margaret Sanders

  • T1
  • *
  • Posts: 27
  • Just a regular girl here!
Re: So Where Are Fred's Remains?
« Reply #58 on: March 21, 2018, 06:33:29 PM »

Whoa, isn't it something how we can perceive things so differently from one another? Your reply truly gave me pause; I had never pictured it from your perspective before. It makes so much sense, though. I've taken my above opinion without actually knowing what tones AE and FN spoke with, and hadn't stopped to consider that my first take might not have been accurate. That's what I love about this forum - there's always an opportunity to see something differently. Thanks, Krystal!
I'm no expert; just happy to be here.👀
#4777A
 
Logged

Mark Appel

  • T3
  • ***
  • Posts: 112
Re: So Where Are Fred's Remains?
« Reply #59 on: March 21, 2018, 10:22:24 PM »

Is it possible that Fred's "delirium" wasn't actually delirium at all? There has been lots of speculation that Fred had suffered a head injury but it was stated that her navigator "was severely injured" and only alluded to a head injury.  Lots of ways to get hurt in a bad landing. Could it be possible that his agitation, abruptness, and storming out of the cockpit were actually just a hot, tired, thirsty, hungry, hurt and frightened navigator, who recognized the full gravity of the situation,  trying to reason with a pilot who is playing with the radios under false hope of an imminent rescue rather than grabbing what they could and boot scooting out of there while they still could? Could Amelia, in fact,  have been the delirious one?   

Of course, anything is "possible." But is it reasonable? No. It's not reasonable that Fred (in his right mind) did not recognize that their first priority was to communicate with rescuers. From the time they landed, that was certainly the priority. It was--by far--their greatest hope for survival.
"Credibility is Everything"
 
« Last Edit: March 21, 2018, 10:26:03 PM by Mark Appel »
Logged
Pages: 1 2 3 [4] 5   Go Up
 

Copyright 2020 by TIGHAR, a non-profit foundation. No portion of the TIGHAR Website may be reproduced by xerographic, photographic, digital or any other means for any purpose. No portion of the TIGHAR Website may be stored in a retrieval system, copied, transmitted or transferred in any form or by any means, whether electronic, mechanical, digital, photographic, magnetic or otherwise, for any purpose without the express, written permission of TIGHAR. All rights reserved.

Contact us at: info@tighar.org • Phone: 610-467-1937 • Membership formwebmaster@tighar.org

Powered by MySQL SMF 2.0.15 | SMF © 2017, Simple Machines Powered by PHP