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Author Topic: Research needed -Las Vegas airport in 1936  (Read 72544 times)

Daniel R. Brown

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Re: Research needed -Las Vegas airport in 1936
« Reply #60 on: October 16, 2016, 12:37:27 PM »

I guess it's possible that he made a test flight in CFAZY in the morning on Aug 2, flew up to San Francisco with AE that afternoon, and came back on Aug 3 in time to delivery CFAZY to Las Vegas that same day.  It still doesn't explain why he logged the two day San Francisco trip as one flight on the wrong day.

I still trust that the logbook is an accurate contemporaneous record of times McLeod piloted the plane. After July 24th it was AE's plane and, since McLeod was consistent in noting instances when he "returned" an aircraft to the field of takeoff, I suspect that Mantz flew it back from Las Vegas to Turkey Crossing on the 24th (he was pretty adept at slinging it around for the movie soon thereafter). That would make July 24th, 1936, a strong candidate date of the Turkey Crossing photos. I think McLeod didn't record the flights to San Francisco and back in August because someone else, possibly AE, piloted the plane. There's no need to suspect that he omitted flights or logged a wrong date.

(I know, lots of trust, suspect, and think there... FWIW.)

For anyone interested, NC14946 (destined for the Spanish civil war) and NC4965 and NC9476 (American Eagle A-1 and Standard J-1 military trainers) are listed at airhistory.org.uk.

Dan Brown, #2408
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Daniel R. Brown

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Re: Research needed -Las Vegas airport in 1936
« Reply #61 on: October 16, 2016, 01:01:52 PM »

There is one other point about McLeod's entry for the 24th though: it records that he flew 280 miles (about right for one-way from Burbank to Las Vegas) in 1 hour and 20 minutes. Seems fast, no?

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Ric Gillespie

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Re: Research needed -Las Vegas airport in 1936
« Reply #62 on: October 16, 2016, 01:57:35 PM »

I suspect that Mantz flew it back from Las Vegas to Turkey Crossing on the 24th (he was pretty adept at slinging it around for the movie soon thereafter).
The flight from Las Vegas back to Burbank may well have been an instructional flight with McLeod checking out Mantz in the airplane.  As such, it would be logged by Mantz, not McLeod.  I also agree that Mantz was clearly comfortable in the machine by the time the Love On The Run sequence was filmed.  I wonder if this was the first multi-engine aircraft Mantz had flown.  As far as I know, his Hollywood work was all in singles.

That would make July 24th, 1936, a strong candidate date of the Turkey Crossing photos.

I don't see the logic.  If Earhart was around on July 24, why send Mantz to Vegas to accept delivery?


I think McLeod didn't record the flights to San Francisco and back in August because someone else, possibly AE, piloted the plane. There's no need to suspect that he omitted flights or logged a wrong date.

I agree.  McLeod was definitely there (per the newspaper article) but AE probably logged the flight.  I would imagine that she needed many hours of instruction before she was ready to fly the ship solo.

The trip to "S. F. airport 4 A & E." on Aug. 7 is interesting.  Is "S.F." San Francisco? The distance is right.  No return flight logged.  Maybe AE went with him.  A. & E. means Airframe & Engine. Take another look at the Inspection Report of that date (my post of Oct. 15 above).  The fuselage tanks have been removed.  Total fuel capacity is only 344 gallons.  They're having trouble with the long-range fuel system.
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Ric Gillespie

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Re: Research needed -Las Vegas airport in 1936
« Reply #63 on: October 16, 2016, 02:00:00 PM »

There is one other point about McLeod's entry for the 24th though: it records that he flew 280 miles (about right for one-way from Burbank to Las Vegas) in 1 hour and 20 minutes. Seems fast, no?

215 mph.  Haulin' butt.  Max cruise and a tailwind.
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Kevin A. Roll

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Re: Research needed -Las Vegas airport in 1936
« Reply #64 on: October 17, 2016, 07:55:41 AM »

197NM between the present-day North Las Vegas airport and Burbank. 280 miles (nautical or statute?) seems like a significant diversion...
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Ric Gillespie

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Re: Research needed -Las Vegas airport in 1936
« Reply #65 on: October 17, 2016, 09:59:07 AM »

197NM between the present-day North Las Vegas airport and Burbank. 280 miles (nautical or statute?) seems like a significant diversion...

McLeod would almost certainly be using statute miles.  197 nautical is 227 statute.  53 extra miles. 
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Harbert William Davenport

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Re: Research needed -Las Vegas airport in 1936
« Reply #66 on: October 18, 2016, 12:08:11 AM »

   For July 1 (logbook p 9) McLeod listed a one-way trip to Las Vegas as 270 miles, not 280.  That made me wonder whether on July 24 his mileage may have included a ten-mile test flight, since he listed 2 trips (is that '2' written over an original '1'?).  But the trouble with that guess is that his listed time of 1:20 is consistent with a Vegas-only flight, without any additional time, even just 10 minutes, his minimum for a short test flight.
  On a couple of other points, I like your suggestion, Dan, that McLeod let Earhart log the Aug 2-3 flight to San Francisco.  I had not thought of that possibility.
   And as you say, Ric, McLeod no doubt let Mantz log the return flight from Las Vegas on July 24.  My guess is that Mantz's considerable self-confidence would allow him to consider himself competent to pilot the Electra, after just that one flight with McLeod, never mind what the authorities might think.
   That's an interesting question, whether AE's Electra was the first multi-engine plane Mantz had flown.
Don Dwiggins's biography of Mantz, Hollywood Pilot, recounts an incident in which Mantz took over the controls of a Ford Tri-Motor from its pilot-owner Howard Batt, in a vain attempt to avoid a collision with a power-line pole in landing at United Airport, Burbank (pp 47-48).  The night landing was being filmed for the 1933 movie, Central Airport.  Here's more info on the planes in the film: http://www.aeromovies.fr/articles.php?lng=en&pg=684
   There were three other Ford Tri-motors in the film, but I'm not clear yet on whether Mantz was piloting any of them.  From Dwiggins's book I gather that it was common for Mantz to arrange for the use in movies of planes that were being hangared with his United Air Services.  But apparently he had no access to a Tri-Motor in that way, because he called Batt to ask to rent his, which Batt refused.  But Batt did agree to pilot his ship himself, a decision he no doubt regretted, after the accident.   
  Mantz was the first tenant of the new United airport, according to Dwiggins, using the large hangar to the east of the terminal building (caption of photo 15, facing p 58).
H. Wm. (Bill) Davenport
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Ric Gillespie

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Re: Research needed -Las Vegas airport in 1936
« Reply #67 on: October 18, 2016, 12:30:07 PM »

   For July 1 (logbook p 9) McLeod listed a one-way trip to Las Vegas as 270 miles, not 280.  That made me wonder whether on July 24 his mileage may have included a ten-mile test flight, since he listed 2 trips (is that '2' written over an original '1'?).

We don't know the definition of a "trip."  My guess would be that one takeoff and one landing constitute a "trip."  More than one trip in one logged flight might mean multiple takeoffs and landings for practice, instruction, or testing.
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Harbert William Davenport

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Re: Research needed -Las Vegas airport in 1936
« Reply #68 on: October 19, 2016, 01:35:53 PM »

I want to apologize to Ric for having failed to recall that he had already posted for us a careful and thorough interpretation of McLeod's logbook, in this "new chronology" from one year ago:

Re: X16020
« Reply #45 on: October 18, 2015, 01:00:16 PM »

In this post Ric had already answered almost all my questions about McLeod's logbook and what was going on with the Electra in July and August. 
      I promise, from now on I will consult that post first, to lessen the odds that I will be asking Ric to repeat himself!
     
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Ric Gillespie

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Re: Research needed -Las Vegas airport in 1936
« Reply #69 on: October 19, 2016, 01:40:18 PM »

I want to apologize to Ric for having failed to recall that he had already posted for us a careful and thorough interpretation of McLeod's logbook, in this "new chronology" from one year ago:

Re: X16020
« Reply #45 on: October 18, 2015, 01:00:16 PM »

In this post Ric had already answered almost all my questions about McLeod's logbook and what was going on with the Electra in July and August. 
      I promise, from now on I will consult that post first, to lessen the odds that I will be asking Ric to repeat himself!
     

No apology needed Bill.  I had forgotten all about that and, thanks to our discussions here,  I now understand McLeod's logbook better than I did then.

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Daniel R. Brown

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Re: Research needed -Las Vegas airport in 1936
« Reply #70 on: October 20, 2016, 07:22:08 AM »

Most likely dates for the Turkey Crossing photos?  Certainly after July 21 and before August 2.

Let's work it backwards. On August 31st when she arrived at Floyd Bennett the plane was painted in Purdue colors, radios were installed and registration was "R", so those things (registration, paint and radios) happened before departure from Burbank on the 29th. The paint job happened probably on August 17th in time to be photographed at Turkey Crossing on the 18th. There is radio (at least one belly antenna) but no paint in the "striding" photo so it was taken before August 17th. The August 7th BAC inspection records registration "R" but still (since first inspection) no radio, which leads me to think the "striding" photo was taken between August 7th and August 17th.

This is consistent with the change in registration from "X" on the 3rd to "R" by the 7th, but there is no way to reconcile any of this with the "NR" registration shown in the July 21st photos and in McLeod's logbook entries on August 5th and later.

Assumptions: radio antenna in "striding" photo = radio at least in the process of being installed; and BAC reports accurately document absence of radio. There are two belly antennas clearly visible in the November 21st photo at South Bend IN, but a dorsal antenna mast doesn't appear until December 10th.

Dan Brown, #2408
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Ric Gillespie

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Re: Research needed -Las Vegas airport in 1936
« Reply #71 on: October 20, 2016, 08:02:14 AM »

On August 31st when she arrived at Floyd Bennett the plane was painted in Purdue colors, radios were installed and registration was "R", so those things (registration, paint and radios) happened before departure from Burbank on the 29th.

Agreed

The paint job happened probably on August 17th in time to be photographed at Turkey Crossing on the 18th.

Agreed.  The Purdue colors needed to go on before Purdue president Elliot showed up to see the new airplane on August 20.

There is radio (at least one belly antenna) but no paint in the "striding" photo so it was taken before August 17th. The August 7th BAC inspection records registration "R" but still (since first inspection) no radio, which leads me to think the "striding" photo was taken between August 7th and August 17th.

Disagree.  In the "striding" photo the airplane is marked NR16020.  Those markings were replaced with X16020 before the August 2nd trip to San Francisco.

This is consistent with the change in registration from "X" on the 3rd to "R" by the 7th, but there is no way to reconcile any of this with the "NR" registration shown in the July 21st photos and in McLeod's logbook entries on August 5th and later.

The registration number X16020 in McLeod's logbook entries for July 20 through 25 are accurate as to the aircraft's actual legal status.  His entries for August 5 through through 9 show NR16020 and are in error .  They should show R16020.

Assumptions: radio antenna in "striding" photo = radio at least in the process of being installed; and BAC reports accurately document absence of radio.

Agreed.  No radio on July 19.  No radio on July 21.  Striding photo taken before August 2 shows radio at least in the process of being installed. Still no mention of radios in the August 7 inspection report.

There are two belly antennas clearly visible in the November 21st photo at South Bend IN, but a dorsal antenna mast doesn't appear until December 10th.

The second belly antenna was associated with the Hooven Radio compass that was installed while the ship was at Purdue in October.

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Kurt Kummer

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Re: Research needed -Las Vegas airport in 1936
« Reply #72 on: November 03, 2016, 05:47:34 PM »

Just to circle back for a moment to the 'Striding' photo taken at Lockheed's Turkey Crossing plant, it occured to me that there are lots of photos in Richard Sanders Allen's book "Revolution in The Sky."  And sure enough, if you page through the book you'll see several photos of Lockheed owners and their Lockheeds taken in front of that very same hanger. 
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Harbert William Davenport

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Re: Research needed -Las Vegas airport in 1936
« Reply #73 on: November 28, 2016, 05:14:42 PM »

I post in this thread because it concerns a film of a takeoff of the 1934 prototype Electra Model 10A, X233Y, from Lockheed Airfield, Turkey Crossing plant, Burbank -- the same airstrip from which Earhart's Electra first took off in July, 1936.

The 1934 prototype Electra Model 10A, X233Y, c/n 1001, was recently introduced to us by Ric Gillespie in Chapter One, page 4 of Finding Amelia: The True Story of the Earhart Electra:
https://tighar.org/Publications/Books/ElectraBook/Electra_Chapter_1.pdf
 

Now Dan Brown has sent me this link to a fascinating two-minute film of that prototype taking off from the Lockheed Airfield in Burbank (aka Turkey Crossing and Plant B-1).  The film was made on the day of the plane’s first test flight, Feb 24, 1934, for Fox Movietone News.
http://mirc.sc.edu/islandora/object/usc%3A9629

This video certainly helped me to visualize the first takeoff of Earhart’s Electra from that very same airstrip, two years and five months later.

Kudos to Dan Brown for this great find!

Here’s the info provided on that University of South Carolina webpage:

Title: Lockheed Model 10 Electra prototype--outtakes
Item Title: Fox Movietone News Story 21-332
Temporal Coverage: Filmed on February 24, 1934.
Description: Various scenes of a prototype Lockheed Model 10 Electra airplane (a twin-engine, all-metal monoplane). Scenes include the airplane being prepared for flight, the engines "warming up," and the airplane taxiing, taking off, and in flight. The experimental registration number for the airplane was NX233Y; the standard registration number was NC233Y.
Silent or Sound: Sound

Addendum of Nov 30:
     To see that the location of this film is the Lockheed plant and airstrip at Turkey Crossing, and not the United/Union Air Terminal one mile to the west, note that the same small Lockheed hangar that we earlier identified in the background of the Amelia Striding photo (see Bill Mangus’s reply # 27 above) also appears in the background at second 31 in the film.  Then note also that the airstrip as the prototype takes off is adjacent and parallel to elevated RR tracks.  This is true of the Lockheed airstrip, but not of any of the 3 runways at the United/Union Air Terminal.
     According to this Los Angeles Times story, the plane was to be flown over to the United Airport to be on public display the next day (Sunday Feb 25):
https://www.newspapers.com/clip/7659768/electra_initial_test_flight/

H. Wm. (Bill) Davenport
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« Last Edit: November 30, 2016, 06:22:20 PM by Harbert William Davenport »
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Bruce Thomas

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Re: Research needed -Las Vegas airport in 1936
« Reply #74 on: November 28, 2016, 07:05:41 PM »

Great post, Bill! I really enjoyed viewing this neat film, and being able to listen to the roar of the engines as they prepared to taxi out and take off.
LTM,

Bruce
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