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Author Topic: How tall was Amelia?  (Read 114926 times)

Jerry Germann

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Re: How tall was Amelia?
« Reply #15 on: November 28, 2015, 06:39:50 PM »

We know Fred's height but I haven't been able to find a photo of AE and Fred standing up straight exactly shoulder-to-shoulder and visible from feet to head standing on a hard surface.


Here is one of the better ones I have found, though Earhart dips her right shoulder a bit;
http://earchives.lib.purdue.edu/cdm/singleitem/collection/earhart/id/313/rec/769
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Ric Gillespie

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Re: How tall was Amelia?
« Reply #16 on: November 28, 2015, 07:38:26 PM »

I know that one well. Great pic but it won't work. We need to see them from shoes to top of head.
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Brian Tannahill

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Re: How tall was Amelia?
« Reply #17 on: November 28, 2015, 08:05:03 PM »

Ric, are there other photos that show the heels of Amelia's shoes, so Jeff can factor that in to his measurements?  From the color, the shoes she's wearing in the Vega photos don't appear to be one of the three pairs described in the research report.

It's an interesting wrinkle that you have to allow for the height of her shoes, as you measure her height to evaluate whether that was Amelia's shoe that you found on Niku.
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Karen Hoy

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Re: How tall was Amelia?
« Reply #18 on: November 28, 2015, 08:21:17 PM »

NASM opens at 10am. Is that the meeting time for the museum walk through?

Karen #2610ER
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Jerry Germann

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Re: How tall was Amelia?
« Reply #19 on: November 28, 2015, 08:37:38 PM »

I know that one well. Great pic but it won't work. We need to see them from shoes to top of head.

http://earchives.lib.purdue.edu/cdm/singleitem/collection/earhart/id/313/rec/769

Here is another that must have been taken during the same photo shoot, ...Fred is leaning a bit in this one, but both pairs of shoes are in view...seems she is wearing the two tone pair.

http://earchives.lib.purdue.edu/cdm/singleitem/collection/earhart/id/308/rec/440

 pair number three (3)
http://tighar.org/Projects/Earhart/Archives/Research/Bulletins/31_ShoeFetish2/31_ShoeFetish2.html
« Last Edit: November 28, 2015, 09:51:23 PM by Jerry Germann »
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Roger London

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Re: How tall was Amelia?
« Reply #20 on: November 29, 2015, 01:57:53 AM »

UK shoe sizes is akin to 'how long is a piece of string'! Men's shoe sizes do not vary as much as women's. Two weeks ago I was looking for just one style of mans shoe yet had to try 6.5, 7, 7.5 and 8; all dependent on the retailer, or more precisely the manufacturer. Typing in 'UK shoe sizes' into Google will give an indication of the standard . . . take your pick!
And a cautionary tale with clothe sizes whose size numbering varies enormously, now coupled with the industry 'down-numbering' the scale as the populous has increased in obesity and women in particular, it was deemed, are uncomfortable buying a garment with an increased girth number due to their body increase. Its often said each retailer, aka manufacturer, adopts their own size code-number scale, all in the interests of maximizing sales!
Locating a 1930s woman's shoe would indeed be best and I've now missed a prefect opportunity yesterday when their was a large local old garment/shoes/handbags etc sale, the first I've heard of for some time. Guess it'll be quiet now through Xmas and most of Jan. I will look when the opportunity avails.
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Mark Gillespie

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Re: How tall was Amelia?
« Reply #21 on: November 29, 2015, 06:14:15 AM »

In terms of correlating shoe size to height, what about usage and personal habits in terms of a non-exact fit?

Myself, I often select sizes depending on the use of the shoe. As an example, hiking, of course, can require a greater shoe size than you normally would have. In some of my more demanding outdoor experiences the size can be significantly greater. Another example, lately I have been selecting shoes for work at a greater size than I normally would, for greater comfort. And this has now become my standard.

Might Amelia have done the same? Hours at the rudder pedals, allowances for foot swelling? Cold temperatures and thicker/more pairs of socks?

It's amazing how a sloppy shoe can grow on you.
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Ric Gillespie

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Re: How tall was Amelia?
« Reply #22 on: November 29, 2015, 07:40:40 AM »

NASM opens at 10am. Is that the meeting time for the museum walk through?

Let's make it 11am to give people a bit more time to get there without dealing with DC rush hour.
Let's meet under the Spirit of St. Louis.
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Bill Mangus

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Re: How tall was Amelia?
« Reply #23 on: November 29, 2015, 07:43:17 AM »

How tall was Nilla Putman?

If that can be found, this picture might be useful.
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Ric Gillespie

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Re: How tall was Amelia?
« Reply #24 on: November 29, 2015, 08:13:44 AM »

Ric, are there other photos that show the heels of Amelia's shoes, so Jeff can factor that in to his measurements?  From the color, the shoes she's wearing in the Vega photos don't appear to be one of the three pairs described in the research report.

I agree. She's wearing different shoes than any of the three pair she seems to have had with her on the world flight. The heels seem to be quite low.

It's an interesting wrinkle that you have to allow for the height of her shoes, as you measure her height to evaluate whether that was Amelia's shoe that you found on Niku.

I don't think we're going to be able to be that precise and the height of a shoe heel is not going to make a meaningful difference in the predictable size of a normal person's feet.  What we're looking for is any significant discrepancy between Earhart's state height of 5'8" and her actual height. 

Just eyeballing the photo of AE and FN standing together and knowing that FN stood a tad over 6', the difference in their respective heights looks like less than 4" to me.  By my very crude and inexpert ballpark estimation it looks more like about 2.5 inches. If true, that would mean that AE understated her height; not at all uncommon among tallish women.  Men tend to overstate their height.  I was six feet tall for years until I came to grips with the fact that I'm actually 5' 10.5".

It will be interesting to see what Jeff Glickman comes up with.
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Ric Gillespie

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Re: How tall was Amelia?
« Reply #25 on: November 29, 2015, 08:19:01 AM »

How tall was Nilla Putman?

If that can be found, this picture might be useful.

A.  How would we find an accurate height for Nilla Putnam? 
B.  AE and Nilla are not in the same plane as the plane (so to speak). They are standing some distance from the Electra.  We would have to guess at that distance.  The beauty of the Vega photos is that AE is actually touching the aircraft so we know exactly where she is relative to the point of reference on the aircraft.
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Ric Gillespie

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Re: How tall was Amelia?
« Reply #26 on: November 29, 2015, 08:28:41 AM »

In terms of correlating shoe size to height, what about usage and personal habits in terms of a non-exact fit? ...

Might Amelia have done the same? Hours at the rudder pedals, allowances for foot swelling? Cold temperatures and thicker/more pairs of socks?

It gets chilly at 10,000 feet even in the tropics.  We can make all kinds of speculations about actual shoe sizes but we need to start with a normal range of foot size for a person of a particular height and body type.  Those data are available and Earhart certainly seems to have been normally proportioned.
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Jeff Scott

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Re: How tall was Amelia?
« Reply #27 on: November 30, 2015, 01:06:41 AM »

Given the variables others have brought up, such as the tire inflation and thickness of her shoes, I question if the desired precision in estimating Earhart's height is outweighed by the measurement uncertainty.  I will be surprised if Jeff Glickman is able to get better than a ±1-2 inch estimate, which is as good as we already have from documentary evidence.

At the very least, I suggest it would be worthwhile to evaluate the many photos of Earhart standing next to other aircraft or well-known individuals to help narrow down the uncertainty.  Several examples include:

- Photos with Fred Noonan, whose height I've seen listed as 6' 1/4"
- Photos with Herbert Hoover, whose height is listed as 5'11" to 6'0"
- Photos with GP Putnam - I haven't yet located a height for him
- Photos with Eleanor Roosevelt, whose height is listed as 5'11" to 6'0"
- Photos with Franklin Roosevelt, whose height is listed as 6'2"

Multiple options exist on this page alone:

http://www.vintag.es/2015/03/30-photos-of-famous-aviator-amelia.html

If Jeff will be in the area on other business anyway and the Museum visit is a convenient opportunity, may as well go ahead and do it.  If he's making a special trip, it sounds like a potentially ineffective use of time and money.  Perhaps he could use his volunteerism time for greater long-term value to the Nikumaroro Hypothesis by providing reports on his analysis methodology in the 2-2-V-1 and Bevington Object investigations.
It's not too late to be great.
 
« Last Edit: November 30, 2015, 02:02:51 AM by Jeff Scott »
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Jeff Scott

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Re: How tall was Amelia?
« Reply #28 on: November 30, 2015, 01:07:59 AM »

Several photos with Herbert Hoover and one with the Roosevelts.
It's not too late to be great.
 
« Last Edit: November 30, 2015, 01:13:18 AM by Jeff Scott »
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Ric Gillespie

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Re: How tall was Amelia?
« Reply #29 on: November 30, 2015, 07:51:23 AM »

I will be surprised if Jeff Glickman is able to get better than a ±1-2 inch estimate, which is as good as we already have from documentary evidence.

I'd be interested know how you know that the 5'8" height she listed on her pilot's license and passport is within 1 to 2 inches of her actual height. If I used that "documentary" height in drawing some conclusion you'd be all over me.  If we're going to base any kind of analysis on her height we need a forensically-determined number with a calculated margin of error.  Maybe the best we'll be able to come up with is 5'8" plus or minus two inches but that's still better than "She said her height was 5'8"."

At the very least, I suggest it would be worthwhile to evaluate the many photos of Earhart standing next to other aircraft or well-known individuals to help narrow down the uncertainty. 

Sure.  We can eyeball those photos and make qualitative assessments and there's nothing wrong with doing that, but Glickman's work will give us a quantitative answer.

If Jeff will be in the area on other business anyway and the Museum visit is a convenient opportunity, may as well go ahead and do it.  If he's making a special trip, it sounds like a potentially ineffective use of time and money.

Jantz asked me if we could get a forensically-determined height for Earhart.  I asked Jeff if there was a way to do that using photographs. He outlined the requirements.  I suggested several photos (including the Bandoeng photo of AE and FN suggested by Jerry German). Jeff needed something better. I found the photos of AE with the Vega and it occurred to me that the same airplane still exists.  I told Jeff my idea of comparing a historical photo of AE beside the Vega to measurements taken of that same airplane. He said that would be perfect. The next challenge was to get NASM, with whom we have something of an adversarial relationship, to allow us access to one of their most prized artifacts.  I was ultimately successful in that regard.  My original suggestion to Jeff was that he let me know when he would be in DC on business and we'd try schedule the work during his visit.  Jeff decided he would rather make it a special trip and bring along his nine year-old daughter who has never been to DC.  There will be no cost to TIGHAR other than my train ticket.
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