Advanced search  
Pages: 1 ... 6 7 [8] 9   Go Down

Author Topic: How tall was Amelia?  (Read 112630 times)

Ric Gillespie

  • Executive Director
  • Administrator
  • *
  • Posts: 6101
  • "Do not try. Do or do not. There is no try" Yoda
Re: How tall was Amelia?
« Reply #105 on: May 27, 2016, 05:56:13 PM »

Attached is Jeff Glickman's final report on Earhart's height.
Logged

Monty Fowler

  • T5
  • *****
  • Posts: 1078
  • "The real answer is always the right answer."
Re: How tall was Amelia?
« Reply #106 on: May 28, 2016, 08:32:47 AM »

It looks like a good start. Next steps?

LTM,
Monty Fowler, TIGHAR No. 2189 EC
Ex-TIGHAR member No. 2189 E C R SP, 1998-2016
 
Logged

Ric Gillespie

  • Executive Director
  • Administrator
  • *
  • Posts: 6101
  • "Do not try. Do or do not. There is no try" Yoda
Re: How tall was Amelia?
« Reply #107 on: May 28, 2016, 08:39:54 AM »

It looks like a good start. Next steps?

As I said at the beginning of this topic, "In re-evaluating the conclusions in TIGHAR's 1999 paper Amelia Earhart's Bone and Shoes, Dr. Richard Jantz has asked us to get an accurate forensic measurement of Earhart's height."

I've sent Jeff's report to Dr. Jantz.
Logged

Monty Fowler

  • T5
  • *****
  • Posts: 1078
  • "The real answer is always the right answer."
Re: How tall was Amelia?
« Reply #108 on: May 29, 2016, 02:06:42 PM »

Since TIGHAR has so much riding on whatever Dr. Jantz comes up with in his reanalysis, has any consideration been given to sending Jeff's excellent report out for third party review? Another expert in the field agreeing with Jeff's methods, analysis and conclusions would materially strengthen TIGHAR's case that this is Amelia's skeleton.

LTM,
Monty Fowler, TIGHAR No. 2189 EC
Ex-TIGHAR member No. 2189 E C R SP, 1998-2016
 
Logged

Ric Gillespie

  • Executive Director
  • Administrator
  • *
  • Posts: 6101
  • "Do not try. Do or do not. There is no try" Yoda
Re: How tall was Amelia?
« Reply #109 on: May 29, 2016, 02:41:04 PM »

Since TIGHAR has so much riding on whatever Dr. Jantz comes up with in his reanalysis, has any consideration been given to sending Jeff's excellent report out for third party review?

You have already judged his report to be excellent but if you want a third party opinion, be my guest.  His report is public information. The last time we had a third party review his work the analysts at the State Department agreed with him.   

Another expert in the field agreeing with Jeff's methods, analysis and conclusions would materially strengthen TIGHAR's case that this is Amelia's skeleton.

I disagree, but if you feel that way, go for it.
Logged

Ric Gillespie

  • Executive Director
  • Administrator
  • *
  • Posts: 6101
  • "Do not try. Do or do not. There is no try" Yoda
Re: How tall was Amelia?
« Reply #110 on: May 30, 2016, 10:11:26 AM »

A TIGHAR member who is a photographer emailed us to say that he was "distressed by this post by Jeff Glickman."  He felt that, "There are so many things wrong here that makes quibbling over one-inch to be rather laughable."  He went on to raise several questions. "The photograph of Amelia Earhart was apparently taken with a twin-lens reflex camera held at waist height. What was the height of the photographer? Was the camera at his belt buckle or belly-button height? How far from Amelia was he? ... The Canon 5DSR is a "full-frame" digital camera, so to get the same perspective as an 80mm 120 camera, the zoom lens should have been set to 50mm, or slightly less. Was it?"  He was also concerned that the Vega in the Smithsonian is on a jack-stand. "What compensation was used to calculate the offset from the airplane's angle shown in the original with the angle in the museum photo?"
"In short, there are too many variables not accounted for between the two photos to place any reliance on the difference of one-inch in height of Amelia Earhart."

In conclusion he wrote, "I honestly look forward to a refutation of my few amateur details, but I honestly question this report's conclusion as to her height. That darned trigonometry keeps getting in the way."

His email was an honest, civil, and serious critique by a TIGHAR member with expertise in photography.  We forwarded it to Jeff Glickman with a request that he respond.  Jeff agreed and his reply is shown below.  I asked Jeff for permission to post his reply here on the Forum (with the name of the addressee redacted) in the hope that it will remind everyone that TIGHAR is fortunate to have the pro bono help of experts of Jeff's caliber.

Dear R. ,
 
Thank you for your concern about the methodology that I summarized in my report regarding the Forensic Determination of Amelia Earhart’s height. I am a fellow photographer of 50 years. You are of course correct in stating that this is mostly about trigonometry. However, the handling and processing of this trigonometry is complex. Because of this, there is a subfield in photography that is dedicated to this subject which is called “Photogrammetry”.
 
I would first like to share with you some of my background. As a photographer, I have used nearly every class and type of camera. I have developed my own film, both black and white and color, and printed my own photographs. I have built many optical systems, including camera systems from scratch, and I hold patents in optical systems.  Over more than 30 years I have developed a specialization in forensic photogrammetry and photointerpretation, as I have a deep understanding of optical systems, including cameras, and how they form and record images. In this capacity I have provided forensic photogrammetry services to the commercial sector, scientific organizations, and local and federal law enforcement, including the US Attorney’s Office, the US Department of Justice, the US Department of Homeland Security, and others. From a credentials perspective I am a Senior Member of the Institute of Electrical and Electronics Engineers, Past President of the Seattle Chapter of the Institute of Electrical and Electronics Engineers, President of the Puget Sound Region of the American Society of Photogrammetry and Remote Sensing, a Board Certified Forensic Examiner, a Fellow of the American College of Forensic Examiners, and a Past Member of the State of Washington Forensic Investigations Council.
 
Photogrammetry has been around more than 100 years, and there are thousands of practicing professionals in the United States represented by the American Society for Photogrammetry and Remote Sensing.  There is an incomplete introduction to photogrammetry available on Wikipedia[1].  For a more thorough introduction to photogrammetry I recommend “Introduction to Modern Photogrammetry” by Edward Mikhail[2]. Also valuable to read is “Digital Photogrammetry” by Toni Schenk[3]. For a complete description of photogrammetry please see the “Manual of Photogrammetry 6th Edition”, a 1,318 page tome[4]. Recently I have been invited by a scientific publisher to write a definitive text on forensic photogrammetry.
 
I would like to address your concerns one by one.
 
What was the height of the photographer? This variable affects the height of the camera which is discussed immediately below.
 
What was the height of the camera? The height of the camera can be important. In this case however, the horizon is visible, and Earhart is standing erect, which tells us that the photographer held the camera substantially perpendicular to Earhart. The photograph was measured for both barrel and pincushion distortion, both of which were absent. This means that there is virtually no distortion to the length of Earhart observed in the photograph.
 
How far from Earhart was he? The methodology that I employed is independent of this distance variable. Therefore the distance of the photographer from Earhart does not need to be known.
 
Does the camera type matter? The type of camera used for the historical imagery and the reference imagery does not matter. The optical principles apply equally to both. Both images must be tested and corrected for any distortions, including lens distortion, and rotational errors.
 
Does the focal length of the lens matter? Yes. A long lens will distort less than a shorter lens. These distortions were detected and corrected in the paper.
 
Does the angle from the rear skid through the main wheels matter? This depends on the method used to develop the scale relationship in the photograph. Raising the rear skid causes the engine, propeller and cowling to tilt downward. If a vertical scale is used in or around these components, the tilt will causes an error in the calculation. The method used in the paper uses a horizontal scale to circumvent this problem, because the vertical and horizontal distortions introduced by a pure vertical tilt are independent dimensions, resulting solely in anamorphic vertical compression. This method only works, because a substantial amount of effort was made to recreate the oblique angle with which the historical photograph was taken, within the reference photograph.
 
Do the shoes worn by Earhart matter? Yes. As I said in my report, the heels cannot be directly measured in this photograph. Most women’s shoes from this period appear to have had 1” or 2” heels[5]. However, the imagery does not support this as there are no visible shoelaces in the left-hand shoe, and the toes are curved upward. Earhart was known to wear boots and the limited evidence in the photograph suggests that she was wearing boots in the photograph. Boots sometimes have shorter heels which would explain the upward curved toes. In my opinion the shoes may have ½” heels. You may substitute a different amount if you wish.
 
Does the hair compression seen on Earhart matter? Yes. As I said in my report, there is little in the scientific literature that describes the height of hair above the top of the head. My best estimate based on circumstantial information is ½”. You may substitute a different amount if you wish.
 
Needless to say, photogrammetry is a complex topic. If it were simple, we wouldn’t need a 1,318 page to explain it. I would be happy to instruct you in its intricacies and subtleties should you wish. If you have any additional questions, please feel free to call me. I would be happy to share with you my decades of experience working in this highly specialized area.
 
Sincerely,
 
Jeff B. Glickman, BSCS, BCFE, FACFE, DABFE
PHOTEK – First in Forensic Imaging
President, American Society for Photogrammetry and Remote Sensing, Puget Sound Region

Chair Emeritus, Institute of Electrical and Electronics Engineers, Seattle Section
Senior Member, Institute of Electrical and Electronics Engineers
Board Certified Forensic Examiner
Fellow, American College of Forensic Examiners
Diplomate, American Board of Forensic Examiners
Member Emeritus, State of Washington Forensic Investigations Council
 

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Photogrammetry
[2] Mikhail, Edward, et. al., “Introduction to Modern Photogrammetry”, John Wiley & Sons, New York, 2001.
[3] Schenk, Toni, “Digital Photogrammetry”, TerraScience, Laurelville, OH, 1999.
[4] McGlone, J. Chris, Ed., “Manual of Photogrammetry 6th Edition”, American Society of Photogrammetry and Remote Sensing, Bethesda, Maryland, 2013.
[5] Email correspondence, Suzanne Petersen, Collections Manager, BATA Shoe Museum, Toronto, Canada.
Logged

Jerry Germann

  • TIGHAR member
  • *
  • Posts: 421
  • Go Deep
Re: How tall was Amelia?
« Reply #111 on: May 30, 2016, 10:03:53 PM »

Mention of camera height, compelled me to search for photos that may have captured the device that may have taken the photo that Jeff studied. In the attachment below, I ran across one of interest, that seems to have been taken about the same time period(via dress). In front of Amelia are several tripods, one of which seems to have a box camera mounted atop...it is probably of no relevence, but thought it interesting and provides one's imagination a chance to ponder the chances that this might be the camera used to take the studied image.
Logged

Jerry Germann

  • TIGHAR member
  • *
  • Posts: 421
  • Go Deep
Re: How tall was Amelia?
« Reply #112 on: May 30, 2016, 10:16:12 PM »

I believe the main focus was on providing an estimate of height, but was wondering if other data was collected as well during the trip, they being, measurements of the wheel fairings and the distance between the foot pegs. ( Wheel fairing attachment by Neff Jacobs). I placed an arrow to boots that look rather familiar,...but am not claiming they are the ones worn by Amelia in the studied photo.
If the boots Earhart is wearing while standing on the pegs is used,( seem same time period) what would be her estimated height?
« Last Edit: May 31, 2016, 06:46:41 AM by Jerry Germann »
Logged

Ric Gillespie

  • Executive Director
  • Administrator
  • *
  • Posts: 6101
  • "Do not try. Do or do not. There is no try" Yoda
Re: How tall was Amelia?
« Reply #113 on: May 31, 2016, 07:12:15 AM »

I placed an arrow to boots that look rather familiar,...but am not claiming they are the ones worn by Amelia in the studied photo.
If the boots Earhart is wearing while standing on the pegs is used,( seem same time period) what would be her estimated height?

They are probably the same boots she is wearing in the photo Jeff used. Jeff estimated that they added a half inch to her barefoot height.  It's an equestrian style known as a "jodhpur boot" usually worn with "jodhpurs," ankle length riding pants like the ones AE is wearing in the photo of her sitting on the wheel pants of her Vega.  Jodhpur boots and pants are named after the Indian province of Jodhpur where they first became popular with British cavalry units in the late 19th century.  Equestrian apparel was de rigueur for aviators from WWI through the mid-1930s.  Even after riding breeches and jodhpur pants went out of style for flyers, fashionable airline pilots wore jodhpur boots (as referenced by Ernest Gann in "Fate Is The Hunter.")
Today, jodhpur boots have elastic side panels as shown below, but in Earhart's day (and in my day as a teenage horseman and pilot) they had a buckled leather strap that encircled the ankle.
Logged

Dan Swift

  • TIGHAR member
  • *
  • Posts: 348
Re: How tall was Amelia?
« Reply #114 on: May 31, 2016, 02:40:42 PM »

On the "camera height", she appears to be leaning and resting (almost sitting) against (possibly wheel faring) therefore one can not get an accurate height...I wouldn't think. 
TIGHAR Member #4154
 
Logged

Ric Gillespie

  • Executive Director
  • Administrator
  • *
  • Posts: 6101
  • "Do not try. Do or do not. There is no try" Yoda
Re: How tall was Amelia?
« Reply #115 on: May 31, 2016, 02:44:27 PM »

On the "camera height", she appears to be leaning and resting (almost sitting) against (possibly wheel faring) therefore one can not get an accurate height...I wouldn't think.

That's why Jeff used the photo he did. 
"The height of the camera can be important. In this case however, the horizon is visible, and Earhart is standing erect, which tells us that the photographer held the camera substantially perpendicular to Earhart. The photograph was measured for both barrel and pincushion distortion, both of which were absent. This means that there is virtually no distortion to the length of Earhart observed in the photograph."
Logged

Monty Fowler

  • T5
  • *****
  • Posts: 1078
  • "The real answer is always the right answer."
Re: How tall was Amelia?
« Reply #116 on: June 05, 2016, 11:24:57 AM »

I did not see anything in the report regarding this specific aircraft's history, and how that might, or might not, have any bearing on the measurements taken and their interpretation. Was that considered?

LTM,
Monty Fowler, TIGHAR No. 2189 EC
Ex-TIGHAR member No. 2189 E C R SP, 1998-2016
 
Logged

Ric Gillespie

  • Executive Director
  • Administrator
  • *
  • Posts: 6101
  • "Do not try. Do or do not. There is no try" Yoda
Re: How tall was Amelia?
« Reply #117 on: June 05, 2016, 11:28:56 AM »

I did not see anything in the report regarding this specific aircraft's history, and how that might, or might not, have any bearing on the measurements taken and their interpretation. Was that considered?


Yes.
Logged

Monty Fowler

  • T5
  • *****
  • Posts: 1078
  • "The real answer is always the right answer."
Re: How tall was Amelia?
« Reply #118 on: June 05, 2016, 01:27:52 PM »

That's good, since the aircraft was apparently involved in at least one accident that affected the nose area, the subject of some of the measurements.

LTM,
Monty Fowler, TIGHAR No. 2189 EC.
Ex-TIGHAR member No. 2189 E C R SP, 1998-2016
 
Logged

Ric Gillespie

  • Executive Director
  • Administrator
  • *
  • Posts: 6101
  • "Do not try. Do or do not. There is no try" Yoda
Re: How tall was Amelia?
« Reply #119 on: June 05, 2016, 04:19:02 PM »

That's good, since the aircraft was apparently involved in at least one accident that affected the nose area, the subject of some of the measurements.

On September 30, 1930 the aircraft nosed-over in a landing accident at NAS Norfolk.  We can safely assume that the cowling sustained damage. We don't know whether the photo used in Glickman's study was taken before or after the accident, but it doesn't matter. Repairing or replacing the cowling would not alter its dimensions.
Logged
Pages: 1 ... 6 7 [8] 9   Go Up
 

Copyright 2024 by TIGHAR, a non-profit foundation. No portion of the TIGHAR Website may be reproduced by xerographic, photographic, digital or any other means for any purpose. No portion of the TIGHAR Website may be stored in a retrieval system, copied, transmitted or transferred in any form or by any means, whether electronic, mechanical, digital, photographic, magnetic or otherwise, for any purpose without the express, written permission of TIGHAR. All rights reserved.

Contact us at: info@tighar.org • Phone: 610-467-1937 • Membership formwebmaster@tighar.org

Powered by MySQL SMF 2.0.18 | SMF © 2021, Simple Machines Powered by PHP