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[Monty Fowler]

Bob ... oh, never mind. Red X time.

LTM,
Monty Fowler, TIGHAR No. 2189 EC

[JNev]

??

You may have a point, Steve.

[Neff Jacobs]

Some thoughts on air to air refueling over Midway.
Presumably Earhart would have needed several hundred gallons.  The only aircraft capable of that fuel load able to operate out of Midway at that time were flying boats.    This cuts the choices to a Pan Am aircraft or a PBY.  Since Earhart was talking to Roosevelt I presume a PBY.   Based mostly on photos from the era.  Air refueling at that time consisted of letting a hose down from one open cockpit to another.   At a minimum the PBY would need to be replumbed so that it's fuel could be transferred by hose to the Electra the hose coming out the rear hatch.  It would be dangerous to put the hose inside the  Electra in case they hit a bump you would want to uncouple.   The simplest fix I can think of is to arrange the top hatch so it could be locked open in flight and plumb a fuel inlet just behind the hatch.  Then a distribution manifold would have to be added to all the tanks.   If your eyes haven't glazed by now  formation flying is a special skill Earhart had not practiced.   

Bottom line nice brainstorm.   Perhaps under wartime conditions the modifications could have been made and well trained military crews could have worked out how to do it with a high success rate in 90 days.
Neff

[JNev]

Well, had she tried it, we might at least have known for certain what happened to her... 

[Martin X. Moleski, SJ]

Air refueling at that time consisted of letting a hose down from one open cockpit to another.

The state-of-the-art from 1935 to 1939 seems to have been "Grappled-line looped-hose."

It would have required a pretty massive reconstruction of the innards of the Electra, I think.

Not something you could hide from photographers and field hands.

Not something to rely on without some serious training!

And, as you said so well, not something that could work without some extensive plumbing to distribute the fuel evenly through the gas tanks.

According to the article linked above, 16 flights were made across the Atlantic using the grapple-hose system, so the problems were solved, but I just can't see Amelia and Fred planning to use any system like that at all.

[Bob Smith]

It's not that difficult to plumb a multiple tank system together so you only need one filler opening and one outlet.. its a matter of syphoning. It works on riding lawn mowers with 2 tanks. They all just need a hose connection so they act as one tank. I'd have to assume for now the electra tanks were  rigged this way anyway so they would only have to fill at one opening, not each tank separately. I.m not advocating the hose in the window would work, but in an emergency who knows, it  would allow an alternative to sky walking!

[Martin X. Moleski, SJ]

It's not that difficult to plumb a multiple tank system together ...

No.  It's been done.  Often.

But you can't have invisible plumbing in the real world.

There is no evidence of such plumbing in the Electra.

[JNev]

Example -

[Bob Smith]

Close to a window??

[Martin X. Moleski, SJ]

Close to a window??

Here is a superb page showing the development of the Electra's fuel system, with lots and lots of pictures.

There were no windows near the gas tanks.

Four filler ports in the final configuration.

Not accessible during flight.

[Bob Smith]

Wadayano. It appears, Marty the fuel inlet tubes are removable from the inside at the flex joints. The front one (added later) on the "drivers'" side is fairly close to the pilots window (sliding?) Do you agree?

[Martin X. Moleski, SJ]

Wadayano. It appears, Marty the fuel inlet tubes are removable from the inside at the flex joints.

Yes.  With the proper tools and spare time. 

The front one (added later) on the "drivers'" side is fairly close to the pilots window (sliding?) Do you agree?

"Fairly close" by what measure?

It looks like three or four feet to me.

There is a bulkhead between the cockpit and the fuel-tank area.

Are you suggesting that a hose would be dropped down to the pilot's window, retrieved one-handed, hauled into the fuel area, and plugged into a special fitting for that one-quarter of the fuel system?

If so, my answer is "No, the window and the fuel part are not fairly close."

[Bob Smith]

Ya, OK, Marty. Its a dum idea! Could be done, though, with a screw driver(probably philips head) and about 10 minutes, maybe less with two people?? The hatch over Amelia's head would work better than the window, and if they could pass notes from front to back through the bulkhead they probably could figure out a way to pass most anything, although a little tight?

[Martin X. Moleski, SJ]

Could be done, though, with a screw driver(probably philips head) and about 10 minutes, maybe less with two people?

No doubt.

The hatch over Amelia's head would work better than the window, and if they could pass notes from front to back through the bulkhead they probably could figure out a way to pass most anything, although a little tight?

Our imaginations do not work the same way, Bob.

Yes, on the ground, it would be a piece of cake to snake a hose down through the pilot's hatch and into the fueling area.

Now imagine FINDING the rendezvous point over the Pacific (not a trivial task).

Now imagine the PBY dropping a hose out of its belly for Fred to catch while standing up in the slipstream.  His life depends upon it.  The PBY operator has no control over where the hose goes.  The pilot has to fly a straight line.  Amelia has to approach the hose without being able to see it directly, because it has to clear her circular antenna, which stands in front of the pilot hatch where Fred is being hammered by the slipstream.  Fred can't give her handsigns, because he is reaching up for the hose.  He can't talk to her because the radio system is not wired so that he can take a headset up through the hatch. 

I am a believer.  I believe in miracles.  I do not believe everything I hear, nor do I think the Lord on high would provide hosts of angels to make this system work.  And I don't believe the military would sign on to the task, either.  The quality of military judgment varies, of course, but I don't think this kind of scheme would appeal to those whose skills would be needed for it, no matter how close the beneficiary was to the Commander in Chief.

[Neff Jacobs]

Marty,
Thanks for the info on the Grappled-line looped-hose.   It appears to be a good deal safer than having a hose end flailing about in the slip stream.   And yes a whole bunch of things could have been done, but there is no evidence Air refueling ever got past the early planing stage.  The Grappled-line looped-hose does appear to be more likely to succeed with that great big loose loop in the line and a positive way to haul in the hose.  Still I suspect the Navy was wise to by one means or another not try it.   I do repeat it is absolutely nuts to snake the hose inside the Electra.  Just in case of a tight hose for whatever reason you have to be able to disconnect in a hurry preferably automatically.  Think drogue and probe or simply a slip fit.
Neff