ROVs and GPS

[Bill Richards]

As Ric has mentioned before 'no plan ever survives first contact with the enemy' and for Niku VIII that appears to be the case.  With the geomagnetic storm causing GPS issue and the ROVs having their problems the Team sure has their hands full.  I sure hope they can turn the corner and zero in on Richie's Anomaly!  Best of Luck to all of them!!!

[George Lam]

Agreed.  However this isn't the first ROV mission at the atoll. 2010 and 2012 had ROVs.  June 19th's report mentions strong currents in deep water off the reef preventing sufficient thrust in the direction they want the ROV to travel.  I wonder if these types of currents are typical in and around the area? I posted yesterday here about whether or not these kinds of currents can push loose debris around on the catchment ledges of the reef, here:

After reading through various discussions on sub-water movement patterns/current flows at Niku on the forum, I'm curious as to underwater currents at the depth of the anomaly.  It was mentioned that shallow waters at the reef will experience the greatest wave energy, and deep waters below an undetermined threshold are typically calm and undisturbed, even with a hurricane above.  I've read about specific locations in deep trenches or underwater ridges that give way to massive waves that don't show on the surface.  For example, submariners during World War II were known to avoid the Strait of Gibraltar because of its internal waves.

"Scientists have made the first measurements of internal waves breaking at a crucial spot in the Pacific. About 200 miles northeast of Samoa, a huge volume of seawater — equal to 35 Amazon rivers — barrels through a narrow underwater channel, then wends its way into the depths of the northern Pacific. Researchers led by University of Washington oceanographer Matthew Alford found that 800-foot-high internal waves act like a gargantuan mixer at the spot, churning together seawaters of different saltiness and temperature until they're thoroughly blended together."
Source: http://www.usatoday.com/story/tech/2014/05/22/towering-underwater-waves/9178513/

Of course, the area right off the reef's edge at Niku is probably not affected by this type of action. However I'm curious as to the incremental, if any, movement of the sonar anomaly or other free-resting underwater features.  Maybe it will be in the same spot as 2012, maybe not.  As for the potential "debris field" targets off the Bevington Object, those look to be enveloped with coral, and possibly hardened in place. Just a thought until we see the results of the current ROV dive of 2015.

I hope all works out well tomorrow. 

[Randy Conrad]

Hey Greg...I really never did hear...but the current ROV's that we are using for this expedition...are they capable of going down to 16,000 ft. or wherever it flatlines at? I know alot of us are getting restless in anticipation of finding out what Richie's anomaly is. I'm sure the poor guy has worn out a part of his carpeting at home, pacing back and forth. Anyway, we all know that this is a very difficult expedition, as in years past. The island will not offer up her secrets...which is really bizarre. Anyway, praying for better days ahead.

[Ted G Campbell]

With all the past problems with ROV's why don't we test them in Fiji before we drag them at great expense to Niku?
Ted Campbell

[George Lam]

Hey Greg...I really never did hear...but the current ROV's that we are using for this expedition...are they capable of going down to 16,000 ft. or wherever it flatlines at? I know alot of us are getting restless in anticipation of finding out what Richie's anomaly is. I'm sure the poor guy has worn out a part of his carpeting at home, pacing back and forth. Anyway, we all know that this is a very difficult expedition, as in years past. The island will not offer up her secrets...which is really bizarre. Anyway, praying for better days ahead.

The ROV in question is the Seabotix VLBV950, rated at 3116 foot depth.  The anomaly is approx. 600ft on a catchment edge of the reef slope, according to my research.  Take a look at the specs of the ROV here:
http://www.seabotix.com/products/vlbv950.htm

Niku VIII plan:
http://tighar.org/Projects/Earhart/Niku8/niku8plan.html

Maybe budget/time restrictions would not allow testing the ROV in Fiji?... Or maybe it was tested. The expedition team will have to fill us in on the details.

[richie conroy]

Hey All

I have too be honest i shrug my shoulders  ::) each day i read the dallies updates as i know Tighar well, And they don't do things the plan A way, Unforeseen problems persistently arise and this expedition will be no different.

The rover has been tested plenty of times prior to departure however unless the rover testing was done in the waters off the reef edge of Niku, Then it will never be perfect first time round or second or third am beginning to sense maybe they will never get down to the anomaly this trip and unless a rover is built specifically for the waters off Niku we may never get to see what is down there  :-\

Lets just hope if anything, They can bring back better sonar data of anomaly and hopefully a couple items off the island to keep the public interested which will help fund future expeditions 

Or maybe they can do what they set out to do achieve there goals and get back home safely   :)

Who knows  ;D     

[Brad Mackey]

I've checked out the updates nearly 300 times since the ROV was supposed to be in the water.  I'm going to have to order new carpet over this.  Can't imagine what they are going through now.

[Monty Fowler]

*points up* What Richie said, and said so well.

LTM, who will go back to snapping half-runner beans now,
Monty Fowler, TIGHAR No. 2189 ECSP

[Brad Mackey]

Sounds like they gave up on the ROV.  Should be able to take two next time.  How much did it cost to rent a non-working ROV?

[Eddie Rose]

Sounds like they gave up on the ROV.  Should be able to take two next time.  How much did it cost to rent a non-working ROV?

Why doesn't it work? Was it working before they left when they tested it?

[Bob Smith]

This seems like a good time to give a rousing cheer to Ric and the teams at Nikumaroro!! I think it must be an extremely frustrating time for them as it is for us as we wait for good news or something positive about the ROV and some other aspects of the expedition. The ROV of course seems like  it should be the star of the show, with its role in more closely viewing the anomoly. I like Jeff Neville's sign line "reguire extraordinary proof", and that is certainly what they are trying to provide: proof that something exists here that can prove Amelia was here! The immediate results of this expedition, and the methods being used to carry it out in order to provide that proof may not agree with everybody. The lasting impressions of determination, unwavering steadfastness, and true spirit of it all, however, is what will put this expedition down in history.

[JNev]

This seems like a good time to give a rousing cheer to Ric and the teams at Nikumaroro!! I think it must be an extremely frustrating time for them as it is for us as we wait for good news or something positive about the ROV and some other aspects of the expedition. The ROV of course seems like  it should be the star of the show, with its role in more closely viewing the anomoly. I like Jeff Neville's sign line "reguire extraordinary proof", and that is certainly what they are trying to provide: proof that something exists here that can prove Amelia was here! The immediate results of this expedition, and the methods being used to carry it out in order to provide that proof may not agree with everybody. The lasting impressions of determination, unwavering steadfastness, and true spirit of it all, however, is what will put this expedition down in history.

Extraordinary proof is the watershed, IMO, Bob.

Extraordinary effort to overcome problems is applaudable - and my hat is off to that kind of spirit.  But unless extraordinary success is attained in that effort to overcome, then no extraordinary proof is possible.

[Martin X. Moleski, SJ]

Extraordinary proof is the watershed, IMO, Bob.

Yes, it is merely an opinion, expressed in this form first by Carl Sagan.

It is not a self-evident principle, and it is not part of formal logic.

Extraordinary effort to overcome problems is applaudable - and my hat is off to that kind of spirit.  But unless extraordinary success is attained in that effort to overcome, then no extraordinary proof is possible.

The history of jurisprudence suggests that evidence can meet the standard of "reasonable proof."  But there is no formal definition of what is and is not an unreasonable set of expecations for such evidence.  The kind of proof necessary varies with the case in question.  The thought that if the Electra landed on the reef, then some large pieces of it should still exist is not a very extraordinary claim.  It may be difficult or impossible to find those pieces, given the nature of the search area, but it is a project that has, in principle, a reasonable chance of success--or failure. 

[Greg Daspit]

Regarding the expedition problems with the Seabotix ROV and Walt Holm's ROV
lf Walt Holm's ROV can take the extra pressure, and it is only a question of the weight and length of line that his smaller ROV can pull, I wonder if they can splice Walt's ROV line to the weighted end  of the longer line for the Sebotix ROV?  Loop the Seabotic cable around a weight and feed it down, allowing for current, with enough spliced on light weight cable for the smaller ROV to maneuver around the end of the weight. Might be something to try after using the smaller to look at the Debris Field.

[Martin X. Moleski, SJ]

Regarding the expedition problems with the Seabotix ROV and Walt Holm's ROV
lf Walt Holm's ROV can take the extra pressure, and it is only a question of the weight and length of line that his smaller ROV can pull, I wonder if they can splice Walt's ROV line to the weighted end  of the longer line for the Sebotix ROV?  Loop the Seabotic cable around a weight and feed it down, allowing for current, with enough spliced on light weight cable for the smaller ROV to maneuver around the end of the weight. Might be something to try after using the smaller to look at the Debris Field.

I suspect that the limitation is due to the waterproofing capabilities of the small homemade ROV.

But only the folks on the boat know for sure.   :)