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Author Topic: "It's turtles all the way down"  (Read 43546 times)

James Champion

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Re: "It's turtles all the way down"
« Reply #15 on: September 05, 2014, 06:26:40 PM »

Quote
Gallagher IS known to have had a Colt .22 cal pistol.

From what I understand, some gun identification can be made from the size/shape/location of the firing pin mark on a shell. This is probably also true of a rim-fire cartridge like a 22. Maybe an analysis of the cartridges will show whether or not they are consistent with what Gallagher might of had.

Were the .22 cartridges found long-rifle types or shorts?
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Monty Fowler

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Re: "It's turtles all the way down"
« Reply #16 on: September 06, 2014, 05:30:05 AM »

From previous Niku expeditions. We'd need the actual gun in question to make a definite link between Gerald and the .22-caliber shells:

http://tighar.org/Projects/Earhart/Archives/Forum/Highlights141_160/highlights148.html

Message:    13
Subject:    A Question From Ric for the Forum
Date:    9/6/01
From:    Pat Thrasher

Research time, gang.

In doing metal detector work around the Seven site the team has come upon some .22 calibre shell casings, longs, with a "P" on the base. Gallagher had a .22 pistol. Could someone who has a copy of the inventory of his effects please look at see what make it was? We think we remember it was a Colt.

Also, if someone could look into .22 Longs with a P on the base we would be very appreciative. Post to Forum.

Pat

Message:    14
Subject:    Answers to A Question From Ric for the Forum
Date:    9/6/01
From:    Roger Kelley, Randy Jacobson

The "P" on the base of the .22 cal shell casing may indicate the ammunition was manufactured by Peters. The manufacture of the pistol or revolver has no bearing on the manufacture of the ammunition fired so long as the ammunition was designed for that specific weapon.

For example, a Colt .22 cal revolver will fire .22 cal short, long and long rifle ammunition. These three types of .22 cal. ammunition have been manufactured in the past and are presently manufactured by at least a dozen companies. Most important, .22 cal weapons are one of the most popular small arms in the world and have been popular for at least 100 + years.

The fact that Gallagher is reputed to have owned a .22 cal revolver or pistol is moot unless Gallagher's weapon is available for examination and firing. By firing the weapon, shell case markings can be compared to the markings on the artifact recovered. If the markings on the artifact match those on the expended shell of a cartridge fired by Gallagher's weapon, under controlled conditions, the only statement or deduction absolute is that Gallagher's weapon fired the cartridge which produced the expended shell casing found at the 7 site.

We would still be faced with several questions. Who fired Gallagher's weapon? Why was Gallagher's weapon fired? When was Gallagher's weapon fired?

However, my optimism prevails. Based on 30 years of police experience which involved numerous investigations involving firearms and my own personal experience, I can't think of a better weapon to use when dispatching small game such as large birds, (gulls on land or in flight), turtles and fish in shallow waters. The .22 caliber pistol, revolver or rifle fits the bill to a "T".

The abundant remains of small game in the vicinity of where the artifact was recovered leads me to believe that a .22 cal weapon was used to dispatch some, if not all of the game.

LTM,
Roger Kelley, 2112CE

Look in Niku Source Book #2, effects of Gallagher:
.22 Colt Automatic, 3.5 boxes .22 cartridges.

Cheers.
Randy Jacobson


Another post further down that string identifies the cartridges as .22-caliber LONG size.

Personally, I think it's a nice bit of historical speculation, but without the gun in question ... that's all it's going to amount to. But hey, things relating to Earhart are STILL turning up, seven decades later ...

LTM,
Monty Fowler, TIGHAR No. 21`89 ECSP
Ex-TIGHAR member No. 2189 E C R SP, 1998-2016
 
« Last Edit: September 06, 2014, 05:33:30 AM by Monty Fowler »
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James Champion

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Re: "It's turtles all the way down"
« Reply #17 on: September 06, 2014, 08:08:58 AM »

Monty - individual gun identification is not what I am getting at. Yes, if we had Gallagher's pistol, the micro-scratches on the firing pin or hammer could link the shells to that specific gun. However, what I am getting at is this - The military did have 22 target practice versions of many of their pistols and rifles, such as the Colt Ace shown in the picture posted by Mark Pierce, which is made to be like the M1911 45 caliber used widely by the military. These type of guns have a firing pin - a lathe or screw machine turned part that has a circular striking mark on the cartridge. Gallagher is suppose to have had a Colt pistol. Most likely this was a revolver with a hammer that directly struck the cartridge. A hammer is a part made by milling-type machining operations, and the striking surface would most likely have been rectangular in shape.  A revolver magazine pistol is lower cost which is much more likely what Gallagher had rather than clip-magazine weapon used by the military which usually has a firing pin. Some gun manufacturers strike a 22 with a square mark, and others with a triangular mark. A more knowledgable gun person could add more information here. It may be possible to identify the range of 22 guns that fired the cartridges.
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Mark Samuels

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Re: "It's turtles all the way down"
« Reply #18 on: September 06, 2014, 09:04:26 AM »

Quote
Gallagher IS known to have had a Colt .22 cal pistol.

From what I understand, some gun identification can be made from the size/shape/location of the firing pin mark on a shell. This is probably also true of a rim-fire cartridge like a 22. Maybe an analysis of the cartridges will show whether or not they are consistent with what Gallagher might of had.

Were the .22 cartridges found long-rifle types or shorts?

From Monty's post below.

"Look in Niku Source Book #2, effects of Gallagher:
.22 Colt Automatic, 3.5 boxes .22 cartridges."


"Another post further down that string identifies the cartridges as .22-caliber LONG size."

This would indicate that the .22 calibre pistol was a .22 Calibre LR (long rifle) Colt Semi-automatic.  Attached is a picture of one of the most popular Colt .22's of the day ca. 1928-1947.  It is a Colt Woodsman 1st Series .22LR Semi-Automatic which was affordable and likely the type of pistol Gallagher owned.  Today it would be worth from $750.00 and up, depending on condition and history.  It is a rim fire pistol.

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John Ousterhout

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Re: "It's turtles all the way down"
« Reply #19 on: September 06, 2014, 09:58:35 AM »

I was intrigued by the idea that a British citizen might use ammunition manufactured by an American company.  I would have assumed Gallagher would have used British ammunition, such as Eley. However, I found the following statements at the Remington History website that provide one way this could conceivably have happened:

"1934 - On May 15, 1934 Remington purchased the Peters Cartridge Company. The Peters Cartridge Company operated an ammunition facility located in Kings Mill, Ohio."

"1946 - In November, 1946, Remington closed the Remington Arms Union Metallic Cartridge Company, Ltd., a wholly-owned English subsidiary. This subsidiary operated a shotshell loading plant at Brimsdown, England. Operations consisted of loading empty paper shotshells, imported from the parent company, with powder and other components. This company also handled importation of rimfire and centerfire ammunition and sporting firearms from the U.S."

So the presence of Peters cartridge cases doesn't rule out their having been purchased and used by a British citizen.
Cheers,
JohnO
 
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Monty Fowler

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Re: "It's turtles all the way down"
« Reply #20 on: September 06, 2014, 12:20:31 PM »

It appears that to settle the issue of whether it was a rimfire or centerfire pistol cartridge, we need a pic of the bottom of one of the recovered cartridges, or for someone to take a look at same. When they have time, of course ... Ric?

LTM, who never was a pistol packin' mamma,
Monty Fowler, TIGHAR No. 2189 ECSP
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Mark Pearce

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Re: "It's turtles all the way down"
« Reply #21 on: September 06, 2014, 04:08:21 PM »


This would indicate that the .22 calibre pistol was a .22 Calibre LR (long rifle) Colt Semi-automatic.  Attached is a picture of one of the most popular Colt .22's of the day ca. 1928-1947.  It is a Colt Woodsman 1st Series .22LR Semi-Automatic which was affordable and likely the type of pistol Gallagher owned.  Today it would be worth from $750.00 and up, depending on condition and history.  It is a rim fire pistol.


Interesting info Mark- thank you.  This web-site... http://www.guns.com/2014/04/22/colt-woodsman-pined-plinking-pistol/

...reports about 690,000 Woodsman pistols were produced in total by Colt.  Roughly 4000 were purchased by the U.S. Government during the war.

----------------------------------- 

Standard Catalog of Colt Firearms,
by Rick Sapp
Page 175;

Military Woodsman Match Target
"After the United States entered World War II at the end of 1941, all civilian production at Colt stopped and the total effort was devoted to the military.  Slightly more than 4,000 First Series Match Target Woodmans were delivered on U.S.Government contract from 1942 to 1944.  Most of them, but not all, had serial numbers above #MT12000.  With possible rare exceptions they all had U.S. Property or U.S. military markings, standard blue finish, 6.63 inch barrel, and extended length plastic stocks.... The military plastic stocks are still relatively easy to find, and still relatively inexpensive..." 


http://books.google.com/books?id=Q-rnXe1g-F0C&pg=PA172#v=onepage&q&f=false


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Tim Gard

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Re: "It's turtles all the way down"
« Reply #22 on: September 06, 2014, 05:14:23 PM »

If the casings were scattered all over, that implies the use of a semi-automatic.
If they were found clustered in clumps, that implies the use of a revolver.

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Mark Samuels

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Re: "It's turtles all the way down"
« Reply #23 on: September 06, 2014, 06:30:36 PM »

If the casings were scattered all over, that implies the use of a semi-automatic.
If they were found clustered in clumps, that implies the use of a revolver.

Not necessarily true.  A revolver is manually unloaded and no telling where the shooter might toss the empty shells or put them in his pocket.  Apparently whoever it was, wasn't taught to police his brass.  :o
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Tim Gard

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Re: "It's turtles all the way down"
« Reply #24 on: September 06, 2014, 09:44:34 PM »

Not necessarily true.  A revolver is manually unloaded and no telling where the shooter might toss the empty shells or put them in his pocket.  Apparently whoever it was, wasn't taught to police his brass.  :o

Agreed, but a shooter who doesn't police his shells, and who fires a semiautomatic, has to stand in one place to effect a concentration of shells, whereas the shooter of a revolver has to effect the needless tedium of hand scattering individually ejected shells to achieve a wide distribution, when his charter was the shooting of crabs.


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Mark Samuels

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Re: "It's turtles all the way down"
« Reply #25 on: September 06, 2014, 10:05:04 PM »

Not necessarily true.  A revolver is manually unloaded and no telling where the shooter might toss the empty shells or put them in his pocket.  Apparently whoever it was, wasn't taught to police his brass.  :o

Agreed, but a shooter who doesn't police his shells, and who fires a semiautomatic, has to stand in one place to effect a concentration of shells[/i], whereas the shooter of a revolver has to effect the needless tedium of hand scattering individually ejected shells [/i]to achieve a wide distribution, when his charter was the shooting of crabs.

Might I remind you that a revolver does not 'eject shells'.  Might I also add that in target training with a semi-auto pistol, one has to move about while concentrating on a single object.  It's called instinctive shooting and can be quite accurate.  Not sure why you are arguing the point or that I even get your point, so I will defer to agreeing to disagree.
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Tim Gard

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Re: "It's turtles all the way down"
« Reply #26 on: September 06, 2014, 10:23:39 PM »

Might I remind you that a revolver does not 'eject shells'.

We both know of revolvers that have an ejector. 

Might I also add that in target training with a semi-auto pistol, one has to move about while concentrating on a single object. 

Would that be as far as a shooter who opened the cylinder of a revolver, activated the ejector and dumped all the shells on the ground in the one spot?

Not sure why you are arguing the point or that I even get your point, so I will defer to agreeing to disagree.

Good idea Mark. I fully agree that you don't get my point. I'll abandon responding to you in this thread.


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Mark Pearce

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Re: "It's turtles all the way down"
« Reply #27 on: September 06, 2014, 11:32:21 PM »


The Reising M65 "Rat Rifle" may be another rim-fire weapon that links the Coasties to the twenty five .22 shells.



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http://www.shootingillustrated.com/index.php/16384/reising-submachine-gun/

"...the Reising M60, was semi-automatic only and had an 18.5-inch barrel. These were intended primarily for civilian, law enforcement, Coast Guard and merchant marine use. A few M60s were also chambered in .30 carbine. Finally, there was a .22 LR semi-automatic M65 meant for training purposes, although how many were actually used in this capacity is open to debate. Some servicemen referred to these rim-fire variations as “rat rifles,” which may offer a clue as to their more practical purpose of vermin extermination around the camp mess area."



"Coast Guard sailor, with working dog, using a modified Reising SMG while on shore patrol."

http://tdannyh.wordpress.com/2011/03/08/m50-reising/
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http://www.peashooter85.com/post/33270774575/the-reising-m65-the-rat-rifle-during-the-opening

The Reising M65, the Rat Rifle.

"...The Reising M65 was a .22lr carbine version of the Reising SMG used for the training of new recruits.  Marines demanded the issue of these little plinker rifles for one purpose, rats.  Rats are everywhere throughout the Pacific.  Stowaways on European ships, rats inhabit almost every Pacific island and with no natural predators, populations thrive.  Marine supply personnel found the rats to be a plague as they infested food rations, chewed apart nylon equipment, and defecated/urinated everywhere.  Killing the rats with say a Colt 1911 or M1 Garand was impractical, not to mention noisy for soldiers who were there for a hot meal and rest.  Marine Corps Quartermasters demanded .22 rifles to solve the problem.  Old stocks of the old M65 training rifles were pressed into service.  There are even a few with threadings indicating the use of a silencer for a more quieter war with the rats."
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http://www.milsurps.com/showthread.php?t=14699

"...When the Marines started moving across the Pacific , they started to have vermin problems in their supply dumps. Shooting the creatures with M1s or Tommy-guns was not the answer. Not only for the damage, but any marines that had been pulled back from the front lines for a night or two of sleep and hot meals and dry beds would be disturbed. Indeed , a couple of fire fights erupted because of this. Enter the rat rifle."

"A few M65 .22lr trainers were pulled and sent to the USMC armorers. There they were modified to take Maxim suppressors. These were shipped to the dumps to kill the rats (ergo , it's nick-name). Some front liners found out about them, and decided it did not matter if the rats were two or four legged . They took some and their ammo on patrols."

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http://tighar.org/Projects/Earhart/Archives/Documents/Hay_Journal/hayjournal.html
 
"New Zealand Pacific Aviation Survey Expedition participant M.H. Hay describing his experiences [with rats] on Gardner Island."
 
"...We eventually had all the tents up and ready to settle in on the island. We had a lot of potatoes included in the stores and those we stored on top of the water drums and covered by tarpaulins. Our first night sleeping ashore we first encountered the rats. We were sitting down to our first evening meal when we heard this strange noise coming from the direction of the water drums and on investigating we found the potatoes just swarming with rats. We killed dozens of them but as soon as we killed them they were set upon and eaten by the remainder. We lost all our potatoes that first night. We could only assume that the rats had originally come from the wreck. They were to plague us for the length of our stay. They had no fear of human beings and they were especially abhorent [sic] in the meal tent when we were eating and had food around. We wondered what they had lived on previously and came to the conclusion that their diet must have been birds eggs, the island being crowded with frigate birds and gannets.

"We invented a variety of traps for them, the most effective being a 44 gallon drum cut in half and the bottom part sunk into the coral sand with the top at ground level. We then poured olive oil into the drum and within minutes the bottom of the drum was swarming with rats. We then doused them with kerosene and set it alight. We did this until we ran out of olive oil and then we had to shoot them. One of the lads used to pour very heavy oil on them and then tip the drum out and watch them crawl away clogged up with oil. My diary shows we killed 70 rats per day on the average with no apparent decrease in population."
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Mark Pearce

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Re: "It's turtles all the way down"
« Reply #28 on: September 07, 2014, 08:06:18 AM »

The report below describes a ".22 casing with a bright red material on its surface" [Artifact 2-8-5-13, see slides 2, 11 and 30.]

It's most likely evidence of a tracer round, connected to the Coasties, not Gallagher.

http://tighar.org/Projects/Earhart/Archives/Expeditions/NikuV/Analysis_and_Reports/Compact/Report88.pdf
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Mark Samuels

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Re: "It's turtles all the way down"
« Reply #29 on: September 07, 2014, 11:13:21 AM »

The report below describes a ".22 casing with a bright red material on its surface" [Artifact 2-8-5-13, see slides 2, 11 and 30.]

It's most likely evidence of a tracer round, connected to the Coasties, not Gallagher.

http://tighar.org/Projects/Earhart/Archives/Expeditions/NikuV/Analysis_and_Reports/Compact/Report88.pdf

The report below describes a ".22 casing with a bright red material on its surface" [Artifact 2-8-5-13, see slides 2, 11 and 30.]

It's most likely evidence of a tracer round, connected to the Coasties, not Gallagher.

Mark, I think you are correct, assuming that these were British tracer bullets.  The Mark 1 .22 caliber were introduced for WWII and the Mark 2 was produced post WWII.  However the red mark was on the lead tip of the Mark 1 and Mark 2 bullet and apparently not on the casing.

https://sites.google.com/site/britmilammo/-22-inch-rimfire/-22-inch-rimfire-other
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