TIGHAR
Amelia Earhart Search Forum => General discussion => Topic started by: Joe Cerniglia on September 05, 2014, 08:17:40 AM
-
Yum - hard to pass up if you're stranded.
The absence of limb bones at the Seven Site suggests that no turtle flesh was actually eaten by the castaway. She may have simply found a dead turtle on the beach decayed beyond use as food and salvaged the shell for water collection/storage. Gallagher reported, "Body had obviously been lying under a "ren" tree and remains of fire, turtle and dead birds appear to indicate life." He didn't describe what part of the turtle was there.
Last month's discussion on turtles prompted me to gather up the research materials I had on the turtle(s) at the Seven Site and write up a research paper that explored and expanded on some various hypotheses regarding the turtle bones that the EPAC (Earhart Project Advisory Council) had been discussing a few years back. Tom King graciously invited me to his blog as a guest author. It took me a number of weeks to arrange the material, and Tom has now posted it to his Amelia Earhart Archaeology website (http://ameliaearhartarchaeology.blogspot.com/2014/09/some-other-seven-site-bones-by-joe.html). I hope you enjoy the article.
Joe Cerniglia
TIGHAR #3078CR
-
The hole in the piece of turtle plastron is a possible indication of the presence of a .22 caliber firearm at the Seven Site, but there is much better evidence. We have recovered 25 .22 caliber shell casings from the Seven Site and nearby Buka forest. Earhart is not known to have had a .22 cal pistol. The Coasties are not known to have had a .22 cal pistol. Gallagher IS known to have had a Colt .22 cal pistol. Gallagher is also known to have been present at the bone discovery location - which we feel sure is the Seven Site. Gallagher would therefore seem to be, far and away, the most likely .22 shooter. What he was shooting and why is a mystery.
-
Thanks for that addition, Ric. I found the discussion of shell casings to be difficult to absorb, spread out as it was over several different threads. I left the identity of the turtle shooter ambiguous to invite just this kind of additional detail. Of course, we still have the mystery of why the turtle bones are missing all skull, vertebrae and limb elements. Mighty odd for an islander and I'm not sure what the answer if available would advance, but it's interesting to speculate. Maybe Gallagher dispatched a turtle on the beach and brought the shell and plastron to the Seven Site to collect rainwater, then for whatever reason, carved it up into smaller and interestingly shaped pieces (moose antler, etc.), maybe to pass the time.
Joe Cerniglia
TIGHAR #3078CR
-
Here's a puzzlement. If you're salvaging a turtle shell from the beach in which to collect water (whether you're Amelia Earhart, Gerald Gallagher, or Robinson Crusoe), why bring the plastron? It will just get in the way. All you want is the carapace. Also, you can't gut out the turtle without removing the plastron. Dragging a turtle in from the beach without gutting it out would make it unnecessarily heavy and the guts aren't good for anything. Maybe the plastron is concave enough to be useful as a water collection surface and the carapace and plastron were brought to the site separately.
I don't buy Gallagher needing to use turtle shell for collecting water. He had access to tanks and barrels from the village. There is both a tank and a barrel at the site.
I think the turtle remains are castaway-related. Gallagher specifically mentions "dead turtle" at the site. If the hole in the plastron piece is from a .22 round it was probably put there by Gallagher as he was plinking at god-knows-what (rats?) around the Seven Site.
-
I agree with that logic. As you indicate, if the Seven Site and the human bones discovery site are the same, and Gallagher said he found turtle bones, which he did, then at least some of the turtle remains, including perhaps the holed plastron, need to predate Gallagher.
So Gallagher shoots at existing turtle remains, perhaps due to missing some intended target. That seems uncharacteristically spendthrift for a thrifty Brit to shoot off a whole box of .22 rounds, but as I stated in the paper, people and groups can behave uncharacteristically.
-
That seems uncharacteristically spendthrift for a thrifty Brit to shoot off a whole box of .22 rounds, but as I stated in the paper, people and groups can behave uncharacteristically.
It does seem odd but all we know about whoever was shooting a .22 cal weapon is the distribution of the shell casings. The pattern does not suggest stationary target practice but rather someone strolling around randomly shooting. Birds? Rats? Loafing laborers?
-
The shooting pattern does seem to have an air of desperation to it, whether borne of boredom (a significant problem for the Coast Guard, as Dick Evans pointed out last weekend), or fear, or necessity. The bullets and casings are a whole 'nother paper. I find the types of casings and shells recovered to be one of the truly complex things about the site.
-
I find the types of casings and shells recovered to be one of the truly complex things about the site.
I think the casings and rounds that match CG weapons and the shards of broken CG crockery, vacuum tubes, salt shaker, and coke bottle are pretty straightforward. No great mystery there. The .22 casings are probably Gallagher. We don't know what he was shooting at but I can't see that it much matters.
-
We don't know what he was shooting at but I can't see that it much matters.
As intriguing as ALL of the little side mysteries of the 7 Site are, we have to always keep in mind that they are just that, side mysteries. Unfortunately, shell casings can't talk (at least in this reality), so we are let with supposition. Plenty enough of that to go around for the few bits that TIGHAR has turned up there.
LTM,
Monty Fowler, TIGHAR No. 2189 ECSP
-
Maybe he (Gallagher) was shooting at crabs, out of boredom. 22's are still relatively cheap by the 'brick'; I wouldn't assume that it would be regarded as spendthrift for him to have decided to enjoy a bit of plinking.
To have shot the plastron - that being the lower 'plate' of a turtle vs. the carapace, which is the upper 'dome', as it were - on a turtle normally-fixed upon the earth, implies either -
a) to have shot from above, i.e. from whence the turtle's innards once (but no longer) were, that the turtle was dismantled, e.g. carapace, etc. removed for harvest, etc. prior to the act, or
b) to have shot from 'below' that the creature was on it's proverbial back somehow (thus 'dispatch' might be possible - but this seems most unusual to the writer and unlikely to have happened) - or that the plastron was merely lying upon the earth belly-up, quite long removed from the dead creature.
Randomly shooting a dead turtle's partial remains seems the more likely scenario, somehow - and with 22's being lovely plinking instruments due to low cost and recoil, it was perhaps done for mere sport - by Gallagher.
The value in this to me seems to be some degree of affirmation of Gallagher having been where the shot critter was found, which adds weight to our supposition of the 7 site being 'the place' of the wretched castaway. The bird bones, shot turtle shell, etc. all seem to lean toward the 7 site being 'the place' of the Gallagher-found castaway, as the bullet hole and 22 casings seem to point to that gent - argue as one will just whom that hapless wretch of the thirteen bones was, if other than Earhart.
-
The Coast Guard has used .22 caliber rifles and pistols in it's 'training arsenal' since the 20's and 30's. See links below.
"Annual Report for the US Coast Guard 1921"
http://books.google.com/books?id=Lb00AQAAMAAJ&pg=RA7-PA37&dq=#v=onepage&q&f=false
Page 37;
"...New 1922 M-1, .22 caliber rifles have been issued for use in target practice..."
http://www.cgsc.edu/carl/wwiitms/TM9_280_1944.pdf
Caliber .22 Rifles, All Types
General. The caliber .22 pattern of U.S. rifle described in this manual was initially developed by the Ordnance Department to provide an accurate small-bore weapon for use of civilian rifle clubs, ..... Subsequently, the weapon was adopted for use in small-bore rifle marksmanship courses throughout the Army, Navy, Marine Corps, and Coast Guard.
http://www.coltautos.com/1911a1aceci_5241.htm
"Colt Ace .22 LR - Colt Ace Serial Number 5241, Shipped to the US Coast Guard"
(http://www.coltautos.com/images/1911a1aceci_5241a.jpg)
http://www.loran-history.info/jupiter/My_Coast_Guard_Memories_LorSta_JUPITER_Chapter_1-Bob_NIK_Nahikian.pdf
Page 6
" ...This was an “ACE” conversion of the standard M1911A1 service pistol to shoot .22 cal ammo in lieu of the standard .45 cal rounds. The pistol had the Coast Guard seal as well as “UNITED STATES COAST GUARD” neatly engraved on the slide. It was a beautiful weapon and had seen very little use...."
http://ww2.rediscov.com/spring/VFPCGI.exe?IDCFile=/spring/DETAILS.IDC,SPECIFIC=10287,DATABASE=objects,
"The Colt Ace was introduced in 1931 as a sub-caliber model of the Colt M1911A1 for practice use for target shooters. The standard Model Ace was pleasant to shoot. Recoil was light, and the accuracy was good... Although the Army normally bought small arms for the Coast Guard, there were times when the Coast Guard, and the Navy as well, bought handguns directly from the manufacturer."
http://www.5nr.org/topside/archives/March_1943_Reduced.pdf
see page 14 of 16
"...The arm used is the United States Army Colt .45 caliber Automatic Pistol but with a .22 caliber bore to accommodate .22 caliber Long Rifle ammunition which is used in the interest of economy."
-
The Coast Guard has used .22 caliber rifles and pistols in it's 'training arsenal' since the 20's and 30's.
Loran Unit 92 was not a training facility. None of the veterans we've interviewed recalls any weapons other than M1 carbines, Springfield rifles, .45 sidearms, and a Browning .30 cal machine gun that frightened everybody because they weren't sure they had assembled it correctly.
-
The .22 shell casings were found scattered around the site? In and around the fire features? Do you think the fire features were prominant when Gallagher was there? It sounds to me he was walking around shooting dinner. Coconut crabs .... walk up, bus' a cap in they a#$# and feed your crew.... good fun and you don't waste the resource... ::)
-
How many shell casings and what calibre? That's important to know
-
It sounds to me he was walking around shooting dinner. Coconut crabs .... walk up, bus' a cap in they a#$# and feed your crew.... good fun and you don't waste the resource... ::)
Maybe he took a shot at an appealing crab that was investigating the turtle remains. The round travelled through the crab and into the turtle.
-
Gallagher IS known to have had a Colt .22 cal pistol.
From what I understand, some gun identification can be made from the size/shape/location of the firing pin mark on a shell. This is probably also true of a rim-fire cartridge like a 22. Maybe an analysis of the cartridges will show whether or not they are consistent with what Gallagher might of had.
Were the .22 cartridges found long-rifle types or shorts?
-
From previous Niku expeditions. We'd need the actual gun in question to make a definite link between Gerald and the .22-caliber shells:
http://tighar.org/Projects/Earhart/Archives/Forum/Highlights141_160/highlights148.html (http://tighar.org/Projects/Earhart/Archives/Forum/Highlights141_160/highlights148.html)
Message: 13
Subject: A Question From Ric for the Forum
Date: 9/6/01
From: Pat Thrasher
Research time, gang.
In doing metal detector work around the Seven site the team has come upon some .22 calibre shell casings, longs, with a "P" on the base. Gallagher had a .22 pistol. Could someone who has a copy of the inventory of his effects please look at see what make it was? We think we remember it was a Colt.
Also, if someone could look into .22 Longs with a P on the base we would be very appreciative. Post to Forum.
Pat
Message: 14
Subject: Answers to A Question From Ric for the Forum
Date: 9/6/01
From: Roger Kelley, Randy Jacobson
The "P" on the base of the .22 cal shell casing may indicate the ammunition was manufactured by Peters. The manufacture of the pistol or revolver has no bearing on the manufacture of the ammunition fired so long as the ammunition was designed for that specific weapon.
For example, a Colt .22 cal revolver will fire .22 cal short, long and long rifle ammunition. These three types of .22 cal. ammunition have been manufactured in the past and are presently manufactured by at least a dozen companies. Most important, .22 cal weapons are one of the most popular small arms in the world and have been popular for at least 100 + years.
The fact that Gallagher is reputed to have owned a .22 cal revolver or pistol is moot unless Gallagher's weapon is available for examination and firing. By firing the weapon, shell case markings can be compared to the markings on the artifact recovered. If the markings on the artifact match those on the expended shell of a cartridge fired by Gallagher's weapon, under controlled conditions, the only statement or deduction absolute is that Gallagher's weapon fired the cartridge which produced the expended shell casing found at the 7 site.
We would still be faced with several questions. Who fired Gallagher's weapon? Why was Gallagher's weapon fired? When was Gallagher's weapon fired?
However, my optimism prevails. Based on 30 years of police experience which involved numerous investigations involving firearms and my own personal experience, I can't think of a better weapon to use when dispatching small game such as large birds, (gulls on land or in flight), turtles and fish in shallow waters. The .22 caliber pistol, revolver or rifle fits the bill to a "T".
The abundant remains of small game in the vicinity of where the artifact was recovered leads me to believe that a .22 cal weapon was used to dispatch some, if not all of the game.
LTM,
Roger Kelley, 2112CE
Look in Niku Source Book #2, effects of Gallagher:
.22 Colt Automatic, 3.5 boxes .22 cartridges.
Cheers.
Randy Jacobson
Another post further down that string identifies the cartridges as .22-caliber LONG size.
Personally, I think it's a nice bit of historical speculation, but without the gun in question ... that's all it's going to amount to. But hey, things relating to Earhart are STILL turning up, seven decades later ...
LTM,
Monty Fowler, TIGHAR No. 21`89 ECSP
-
Monty - individual gun identification is not what I am getting at. Yes, if we had Gallagher's pistol, the micro-scratches on the firing pin or hammer could link the shells to that specific gun. However, what I am getting at is this - The military did have 22 target practice versions of many of their pistols and rifles, such as the Colt Ace shown in the picture posted by Mark Pierce, which is made to be like the M1911 45 caliber used widely by the military. These type of guns have a firing pin - a lathe or screw machine turned part that has a circular striking mark on the cartridge. Gallagher is suppose to have had a Colt pistol. Most likely this was a revolver with a hammer that directly struck the cartridge. A hammer is a part made by milling-type machining operations, and the striking surface would most likely have been rectangular in shape. A revolver magazine pistol is lower cost which is much more likely what Gallagher had rather than clip-magazine weapon used by the military which usually has a firing pin. Some gun manufacturers strike a 22 with a square mark, and others with a triangular mark. A more knowledgable gun person could add more information here. It may be possible to identify the range of 22 guns that fired the cartridges.
-
Gallagher IS known to have had a Colt .22 cal pistol.
From what I understand, some gun identification can be made from the size/shape/location of the firing pin mark on a shell. This is probably also true of a rim-fire cartridge like a 22. Maybe an analysis of the cartridges will show whether or not they are consistent with what Gallagher might of had.
Were the .22 cartridges found long-rifle types or shorts?
From Monty's post below.
"Look in Niku Source Book #2, effects of Gallagher:
.22 Colt Automatic, 3.5 boxes .22 cartridges."
"Another post further down that string identifies the cartridges as .22-caliber LONG size."
This would indicate that the .22 calibre pistol was a .22 Calibre LR (long rifle) Colt Semi-automatic. Attached is a picture of one of the most popular Colt .22's of the day ca. 1928-1947. It is a Colt Woodsman 1st Series .22LR Semi-Automatic which was affordable and likely the type of pistol Gallagher owned. Today it would be worth from $750.00 and up, depending on condition and history. It is a rim fire pistol.
-
I was intrigued by the idea that a British citizen might use ammunition manufactured by an American company. I would have assumed Gallagher would have used British ammunition, such as Eley (http://www.eley.co.uk/history-of-eley/). However, I found the following statements at the Remington History website (http://www.remington.com/pages/our-company/company-history.aspx) that provide one way this could conceivably have happened:
"1934 - On May 15, 1934 Remington purchased the Peters Cartridge Company. The Peters Cartridge Company operated an ammunition facility located in Kings Mill, Ohio."
"1946 - In November, 1946, Remington closed the Remington Arms Union Metallic Cartridge Company, Ltd., a wholly-owned English subsidiary. This subsidiary operated a shotshell loading plant at Brimsdown, England. Operations consisted of loading empty paper shotshells, imported from the parent company, with powder and other components. This company also handled importation of rimfire and centerfire ammunition and sporting firearms from the U.S."
So the presence of Peters cartridge cases doesn't rule out their having been purchased and used by a British citizen.
-
It appears that to settle the issue of whether it was a rimfire or centerfire pistol cartridge, we need a pic of the bottom of one of the recovered cartridges, or for someone to take a look at same. When they have time, of course ... Ric?
LTM, who never was a pistol packin' mamma,
Monty Fowler, TIGHAR No. 2189 ECSP
-
This would indicate that the .22 calibre pistol was a .22 Calibre LR (long rifle) Colt Semi-automatic. Attached is a picture of one of the most popular Colt .22's of the day ca. 1928-1947. It is a Colt Woodsman 1st Series .22LR Semi-Automatic which was affordable and likely the type of pistol Gallagher owned. Today it would be worth from $750.00 and up, depending on condition and history. It is a rim fire pistol.
Interesting info Mark- thank you. This web-site... http://www.guns.com/2014/04/22/colt-woodsman-pined-plinking-pistol/
...reports about 690,000 Woodsman pistols were produced in total by Colt. Roughly 4000 were purchased by the U.S. Government during the war.
-----------------------------------
Standard Catalog of Colt Firearms,
by Rick Sapp
Page 175;
Military Woodsman Match Target
"After the United States entered World War II at the end of 1941, all civilian production at Colt stopped and the total effort was devoted to the military. Slightly more than 4,000 First Series Match Target Woodmans were delivered on U.S.Government contract from 1942 to 1944. Most of them, but not all, had serial numbers above #MT12000. With possible rare exceptions they all had U.S. Property or U.S. military markings, standard blue finish, 6.63 inch barrel, and extended length plastic stocks.... The military plastic stocks are still relatively easy to find, and still relatively inexpensive..."
http://books.google.com/books?id=Q-rnXe1g-F0C&pg=PA172#v=onepage&q&f=false
(http://www.guns.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/04/us-property-mark-300x171.jpg)
-
If the casings were scattered all over, that implies the use of a semi-automatic.
If they were found clustered in clumps, that implies the use of a revolver.
-
If the casings were scattered all over, that implies the use of a semi-automatic.
If they were found clustered in clumps, that implies the use of a revolver.
Not necessarily true. A revolver is manually unloaded and no telling where the shooter might toss the empty shells or put them in his pocket. Apparently whoever it was, wasn't taught to police his brass. :o
-
Not necessarily true. A revolver is manually unloaded and no telling where the shooter might toss the empty shells or put them in his pocket. Apparently whoever it was, wasn't taught to police his brass. :o
Agreed, but a shooter who doesn't police his shells, and who fires a semiautomatic, has to stand in one place to effect a concentration of shells, whereas the shooter of a revolver has to effect the needless tedium of hand scattering individually ejected shells to achieve a wide distribution, when his charter was the shooting of crabs.
-
Not necessarily true. A revolver is manually unloaded and no telling where the shooter might toss the empty shells or put them in his pocket. Apparently whoever it was, wasn't taught to police his brass. :o
Agreed, but a shooter who doesn't police his shells, and who fires a semiautomatic, has to stand in one place to effect a concentration of shells[/i], whereas the shooter of a revolver has to effect the needless tedium of hand scattering individually ejected shells [/i]to achieve a wide distribution, when his charter was the shooting of crabs.
Might I remind you that a revolver does not 'eject shells'. Might I also add that in target training with a semi-auto pistol, one has to move about while concentrating on a single object. It's called instinctive shooting and can be quite accurate. Not sure why you are arguing the point or that I even get your point, so I will defer to agreeing to disagree.
-
Might I remind you that a revolver does not 'eject shells'.
We both know of revolvers that have an ejector. (http://www.shootingtimes.com/files/2010/09/st_coltnewservice_200905-a.jpg)
Might I also add that in target training with a semi-auto pistol, one has to move about while concentrating on a single object.
Would that be as far as a shooter who opened the cylinder of a revolver, activated the ejector and dumped all the shells on the ground in the one spot?
Not sure why you are arguing the point or that I even get your point, so I will defer to agreeing to disagree.
Good idea Mark. I fully agree that you don't get my point. I'll abandon responding to you in this thread.
-
The Reising M65 "Rat Rifle" may be another rim-fire weapon that links the Coasties to the twenty five .22 shells.
(http://31.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_mbnljrkax81rwjpnyo1_500.jpg)
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
http://www.shootingillustrated.com/index.php/16384/reising-submachine-gun/
"...the Reising M60, was semi-automatic only and had an 18.5-inch barrel. These were intended primarily for civilian, law enforcement, Coast Guard and merchant marine use. A few M60s were also chambered in .30 carbine. Finally, there was a .22 LR semi-automatic M65 meant for training purposes, although how many were actually used in this capacity is open to debate. Some servicemen referred to these rim-fire variations as “rat rifles,” which may offer a clue as to their more practical purpose of vermin extermination around the camp mess area."
(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/7/7d/USCG_Beach_Patrol.jpg/458px-USCG_Beach_Patrol.jpg)
"Coast Guard sailor, with working dog, using a modified Reising SMG while on shore patrol."
http://tdannyh.wordpress.com/2011/03/08/m50-reising/
------------------------------------
http://www.peashooter85.com/post/33270774575/the-reising-m65-the-rat-rifle-during-the-opening
The Reising M65, the Rat Rifle.
"...The Reising M65 was a .22lr carbine version of the Reising SMG used for the training of new recruits. Marines demanded the issue of these little plinker rifles for one purpose, rats. Rats are everywhere throughout the Pacific. Stowaways on European ships, rats inhabit almost every Pacific island and with no natural predators, populations thrive. Marine supply personnel found the rats to be a plague as they infested food rations, chewed apart nylon equipment, and defecated/urinated everywhere. Killing the rats with say a Colt 1911 or M1 Garand was impractical, not to mention noisy for soldiers who were there for a hot meal and rest. Marine Corps Quartermasters demanded .22 rifles to solve the problem. Old stocks of the old M65 training rifles were pressed into service. There are even a few with threadings indicating the use of a silencer for a more quieter war with the rats."
----------------------------------
http://www.milsurps.com/showthread.php?t=14699
"...When the Marines started moving across the Pacific , they started to have vermin problems in their supply dumps. Shooting the creatures with M1s or Tommy-guns was not the answer. Not only for the damage, but any marines that had been pulled back from the front lines for a night or two of sleep and hot meals and dry beds would be disturbed. Indeed , a couple of fire fights erupted because of this. Enter the rat rifle."
"A few M65 .22lr trainers were pulled and sent to the USMC armorers. There they were modified to take Maxim suppressors. These were shipped to the dumps to kill the rats (ergo , it's nick-name). Some front liners found out about them, and decided it did not matter if the rats were two or four legged . They took some and their ammo on patrols."
----------------------------------
http://tighar.org/Projects/Earhart/Archives/Documents/Hay_Journal/hayjournal.html
"New Zealand Pacific Aviation Survey Expedition participant M.H. Hay describing his experiences [with rats] on Gardner Island."
"...We eventually had all the tents up and ready to settle in on the island. We had a lot of potatoes included in the stores and those we stored on top of the water drums and covered by tarpaulins. Our first night sleeping ashore we first encountered the rats. We were sitting down to our first evening meal when we heard this strange noise coming from the direction of the water drums and on investigating we found the potatoes just swarming with rats. We killed dozens of them but as soon as we killed them they were set upon and eaten by the remainder. We lost all our potatoes that first night. We could only assume that the rats had originally come from the wreck. They were to plague us for the length of our stay. They had no fear of human beings and they were especially abhorent [sic] in the meal tent when we were eating and had food around. We wondered what they had lived on previously and came to the conclusion that their diet must have been birds eggs, the island being crowded with frigate birds and gannets.
"We invented a variety of traps for them, the most effective being a 44 gallon drum cut in half and the bottom part sunk into the coral sand with the top at ground level. We then poured olive oil into the drum and within minutes the bottom of the drum was swarming with rats. We then doused them with kerosene and set it alight. We did this until we ran out of olive oil and then we had to shoot them. One of the lads used to pour very heavy oil on them and then tip the drum out and watch them crawl away clogged up with oil. My diary shows we killed 70 rats per day on the average with no apparent decrease in population."
-
The report below describes a ".22 casing with a bright red material on its surface" [Artifact 2-8-5-13, see slides 2, 11 and 30.]
It's most likely evidence of a tracer round, connected to the Coasties, not Gallagher.
http://tighar.org/Projects/Earhart/Archives/Expeditions/NikuV/Analysis_and_Reports/Compact/Report88.pdf
-
The report below describes a ".22 casing with a bright red material on its surface" [Artifact 2-8-5-13, see slides 2, 11 and 30.]
It's most likely evidence of a tracer round, connected to the Coasties, not Gallagher.
http://tighar.org/Projects/Earhart/Archives/Expeditions/NikuV/Analysis_and_Reports/Compact/Report88.pdf
The report below describes a ".22 casing with a bright red material on its surface" [Artifact 2-8-5-13, see slides 2, 11 and 30.]
It's most likely evidence of a tracer round, connected to the Coasties, not Gallagher.
Mark, I think you are correct, assuming that these were British tracer bullets. The Mark 1 .22 caliber were introduced for WWII and the Mark 2 was produced post WWII. However the red mark was on the lead tip of the Mark 1 and Mark 2 bullet and apparently not on the casing.
https://sites.google.com/site/britmilammo/-22-inch-rimfire/-22-inch-rimfire-other
-
Gentlemen! Let's all remain friends, shall we?
Arguing over somthing that happened before any of us were born solves nothing, and does nothing to advance the search for Amelia and Fred. Open discourse, openly arrived at, does. My 2 cents.
LTM,
Monty Fowler, TIGHAR No. 2189ECSP
-
Might I remind you that a revolver does not 'eject shells'.
We both know of revolvers that have an ejector. (http://www.shootingtimes.com/files/2010/09/st_coltnewservice_200905-a.jpg)
Might I also add that in target training with a semi-auto pistol, one has to move about while concentrating on a single object.
Would that be as far as a shooter who opened the cylinder of a revolver, activated the ejector and dumped all the shells on the ground in the one spot?
Not sure why you are arguing the point or that I even get your point, so I will defer to agreeing to disagree.
Good idea Mark. I fully agree that you don't get my point. I'll abandon responding to you in this thread.
To Monty's point above (must have been speaking of this) -
It seems that in response to Mr. Samuels' agreement to disagree, Mr. Gard is of course free to abandon as he will, of course - but in the interest of positive discourse I will offer that such election should be made with a bit more civility, please.
---
For the record, I'm not sure I get Tim Gard's point either. Some revolvers have 'ejectors', some don't; ejectors, when present on revolvers, are merely a means of pushing the empty shells or cartridges out of the open cylinder and either into a receptical, or simply into some random pattern on the ground or floor in close proximity to the shooter's feet. They in no way resemble the 'ejector' on a semi-automatic pistol but are hand-powered typically by pressing a pin which in turn forces the ejector against the flanges of the empty shells, pushing them from the cylinder.
A semi-automatic, on the other hand, necessarily ejects each empty shell immediately following the shot - and often with significant velocity away from the weapon (and normally to the side - the right, in the case of a right-handed weapon). This may result in a more random placement of empties, often some feet away from the shooter - and perhaps over a wider area than might be the case of the revolver simply dropping empties near one's feet.
Not sure, but perhaps that is a fair summary of Tim Gard's point and if so, may clarify things a bit.
-
Attached is the illustration from Dr. Mass's analysis referred to by Mark Pearce. As you can see, the round was clearly fired from a weapon with a rectangular shaped hammer (like a Colt Woodsman). Theres's a dot of red paint on the base of the cartridge, not on the bullet as shown on the picture of a British tracer round.
Rats appear to be a problem on Nikumaroro only during periods of extreme drought, such as when the New Zealand survey party was there. There was no drought while the Coast Guard unit was on the island and none of the veterans we've talked to has mentioned any trouble with the rats. I've been there ten times (so far) and I've never seen a rat problem.
Any number of people COULD have, at some time in the island's history, been at the Seven Site with a .22 but we know of only one person who DID have a .22 and WAS at the Seven Site. That makes him the prime suspect.
-
Any number of people COULD have, at some time in the island's history, been at the Seven Site with a .22 but we know of only one person who DID have a .22 and WAS at the Seven Site. That makes him the prime suspect.
Round up all the usual suspects and danged if it ain't..........................Gallagher with his plinkin' Woodsman?
-
General sweeping statement but........as a Brit I doubt that GG was stood in the 7 site popping shots off in a random manner (only the toffs do that when its Grouse Hunting Season) that just wasn't the way it was done in those days.
-
Oy! we need to find something new pretty soon !?!
Some of us are throwing sand on others of us !
And...um...some of us *were* born before there were .22 LR shells at the 7 Site (I prefer 'E' Site)...
If no mini-subs...Shovels ??
Bill; just to let you know there is still interest...and Lurkers
-
Oy! we need to find something new pretty soon !?!
Some of us are throwing sand on others of us !
And...um...some of us *were* born before there were .22 LR shells at the 7 Site (I prefer 'E' Site)...
If no mini-subs...Shovels ??
Bill; just to let you know there is still interest...and Lurkers
Ummm Bill, some were born before Amelia left Miami. eh?
-
One quick word about turtles with bullet holes. I've heard that sailers would shoot at turtles out of boredom, sad but true. I guess if it is diving, the bullet could hit the underside. Dead turtles float (decomposing gases) and this one may have washed ashore. Just a thought.
-
How gassly...
-
So now we're speculating that a turtle who somehow happens to be shot in the belly by a sailor with a .22 just happens to wash up on Gardner Island and its shell somehow gets carried inland to a place where somebody has been shooting with a .22.
Sometimes I worry about you guys.
-
No, no, I wasn't implying that at all, it was just an observation.
On the otherhand, during the 5 years I live in Ghana, West Africa. The fisherman there didn't really bother killing the turtles first at all. Since these turtles are so defenceless, they just pulled them in, put them on their back and cut the "chest-plate" off while they were still alive. Now THAT is ghastly! Maybe the person who did this was not as inhumane and at least took care of it with a bullet.
-
So now we're speculating that a turtle who somehow happens to be shot in the belly by a sailor with a .22 just happens to wash up on Gardner Island and its shell somehow gets carried inland to a place where somebody has been shooting with a .22.
Sometimes I worry about you guys.
That's OK, Mr. Gillespie, we heartily reciprocate the emotion. I know, my bad.
LTM,
Monty Fowler, TIGHAR No. 2189 ECSP
-
So now we're speculating that a turtle who somehow happens to be shot in the belly by a sailor with a .22 just happens to wash up on Gardner Island and its shell somehow gets carried inland to a place where somebody has been shooting with a .22.
Sometimes I worry about you guys.
I only said I thought it smelled funny...
But, Ric, you KNOW that if you ever manage to lay hands on the carcass of the Electra at Niku, some people are going to say it washed up there after it crashed-n-sank sommers else, jus' like that dead turtle done after that sailor shot 'im...
-
But, Ric, you KNOW that if you ever manage to lay hands on the carcass of the Electra at Niku, some people are going to say it washed up there after it crashed-n-sank sommers else, jus' like that dead turtle done after that sailor shot 'im...
Or we dug it up on Saipan and planted it at Niku.
-
But, Ric, you KNOW that if you ever manage to lay hands on the carcass of the Electra at Niku, some people are going to say it washed up there after it crashed-n-sank sommers else, jus' like that dead turtle done after that sailor shot 'im...
Or we dug it up on Saipan and planted it at Niku.
I still say that Star Trek episode is the only thing to date that explains what really happened.
LTM, who keeps phasers on stun at all times,
Monty Fowler, TIGHAR no. 2189 ECSP
-
Or we dug it up on Saipan and planted it at Niku.
Or the Japanese ferried it from Saipan to Niku and planted it there to throw people off the track.
-
Or we dug it up on Saipan and planted it at Niku.
Or the Japanese ferried it from Saipan to Niku and planted it there to throw people off the track.
Amelia planted it there and floated off on a sea turtle?
-
... then Gilligan (often miss-spelled as "Gallagher") shot the turtle.
-
Dang! I knew if we just hung in there we would start to se some answers !?!
Exciting stuff...especially Gilligan References !!
Bill