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[Jerry Germann]

I came accross this photo; http://www.huntington.org/uploadedImages/Files/images/aerospace3026.JPG  the other day, .....( some time back ) the forum was in discussion as to the possible attachment of 2-2-V-1 to the belly area, though mute now,.....some things I note are, .......the numbering of the stations on the upper rail, .....the view from starboard, ( activity taking place in close proximity of the currently discussed area),... and it was also discussed at some length, the possible method of attaching stringers/ sheet alclad, etc...It appears the fellow on his backside is attaching stringers , however; I can't say that is the way the alclad was applied .....( the fuselage in the neighboring jig seems at least partially skinned), .....I just thought it interesting, and wondered as to the lack of advanced equipment in the early days of lockheed.

[JNev]

Jerry, good catch.

Yes, the belly got me re-captivated for a while, as well, as a possibiilty, but seemed finally to be too far a reach: belly 'repairs' should follow the existing / original structural scheme, almost exactly.

'Modifications' can easily be an entirely different matter - and while I've never held 2-2-V-1 to be a shoo in (despite my enthusiasm - which draws both more enthusiasm and criticisms, of course), I do see it as a 'wild card' possibility given that the large lav window is NOT stock.

That said - I respect the arguments that say that stiffener patterns, etc. SHOULD come closer to the original airframe scheme.  It is true that a window covering would ideally follow the original construction scheme.  I merely hold that under the circumstances of patching over that window, lots of other things were quote possible, and 2-2-V-1 is too fortunitous a find to pass up for consideration.  I had no idea there was anywhere on the Electra where a panel of that size would fit, logically - except maybe a belly 'repair' - until the window was realized. 

My main focus since the beginning of this 'does it perhaps belong to the window covering' quest has been 'gee I'd love to just see a great picture of that finished covering' - a truly clear picture would be worth many thousands of words here.

We may be at the cusp of that.  What it will tell us I cannot know yet.  I know what the pictures show so far, and a lav window covering fit is far more likely than the belly, which I think we rightly abandoned - but only time and more information will truly tell.

Thanks for sharing this cool photo of the belly - correction, my bad - LAV WINDOW - area framing on an Electra - it is interesting.  Perhaps it can be seen why this - the belly - was such a fascinating area for a time, especially knowing of the Luke Field incident damage, etc.  From this shot, we can easily understand the ideal notion of 'just put the skin back like it was' in covering the window, but we must also consider that the added window changed a lot here, and having to cover it with apparently limited resources and time may have become something akin to the 'mother of invention'.

Updated for clarity and to correct my reference to the 'belly' as we're actually seeing a side area of the fuselage in the STA 293 5/8 to 320 or so on an in-work factory Electra build.

[Ric Gillespie]

Updated for clarity and to correct my reference to the 'belly' as we're actually seeing a side area of the fuselage in the STA 293 5/8 to 320 or so on an in-work factory Electra build.

Yes, and much of the structure those guys are diligently assembling had to be cut away to install that stupid window.

[Greg Daspit]

This sketch shows how I think 2-2-V-1 fits in the horizontal direction.
I used the most forward row of the double rows at the bulkhead to set sta. 293 5/8 and the single row aft row of rivets to set sta. 320.  I set these 26 3/8 apart. The sticky measure tape seen on the Wichita Electra looks close to this dimension.

In the Miami Herald photo, the vertical rivets were previously estimated to have 1” pitch. This photo was scaled so some of  the vertical rivets at the bottom were as close to 1” o.c. as possible. Using this photo, I estimated the horizontal rivets to be about 1 ¼” on center. The horizontal rivets were drawn exactly 1 ¼” on center. I estimated their starting location based on the rivets in the window coaming. See the reference rivet and dimensions I estimated on the sketch. 

The location of the added vertical frame was estimated from the Miami Herald photo as well. I estimated the gap from sta 293 5/8 at an area close to where I was estimating the other dimensions (at the bottom)  I kept the added window frame parallel to sta 293 5/8, even though it appears to get closer at the top which would mean even more room for a fit. Also if they added another stiffener forward(in between the bulkhead and window frame), and riveted to it, there  would be even more room.

The outline of the artifact was a tracing of a photo of the artifact I did several months ago.  Since it is based on a photo, it is not to scale.  For this study, I rescaled the outer edges of the tracing so  the width was 24 3/8”wide, which was a previous width estimate for the artifact. I could have just used a 24 3/8” box and accomplished the same thing but what was interesting to me was how close the rivet pattern on the artifact tracing fit the rivet pattern I drew for the coaming, which was drawn before I inserted the tracing.

 This is just how I see it fitting based on my understanding to date, which may be wrong. I can see it fitting with other slight variations as well.
The PDF has the better resolution of the files attached.

[JNev]

Nice work, Greg.

[Greg Daspit]

Nice work, Greg.

Thank you Jeff.
This study was done with more of a consideration that it was a cover and had no added vertical stiffeners at the edges. Also the suggested middle stiffener Mr. Glickman discovered was not considered at 307 but possibly more towards the middle of the old window opening. That the middle member was not riveted was considered as a reason it was not at 307.

I plan on doing a variation (I believe like the current thinking) where 2-2-V-1 is more forward and considers the added vertical stiffener at 307. I think that is going to involve an added vertical stiffener at the front edge. I would consider it as the "more than a cover" variation.
edit:Or just option B since added stiffeners could be needed for other reasons. Like what you said a while back about some of these holes (the bottom row) being drilled 3 times.
If I got it straight they are:
1. The original hole drilled for when the aiplane had original skin.
2. Then drilled out for the window.
3. Then drilled out for the patch
Seems like you may need added places to rivet or bigger rivet holes in the old stringers at some point.

[Tim Collins]

Any ideas as to whether the window was fabricated on site for its purpose or a was a manufactured window unit installed? Not sure what that may suggest btw.

[Monty Fowler]

I would say the two windows added were manufactured on site - they were not the size as the standard Electra windows and were installed in an area where no windows were intended to be put.

LTM,
Monty Fowler, TIGHAR No. 2189 ECSP

[Tim Collins]

Two windows? Did I miss something?

[Bruce Thomas]

Two windows? Did I miss something?

Yes, two of 'em. At the time the lavatory window was installed on the right side of the aircraft, a window was installed in the door on the left side.

Notice, in this photo found on the website of This Day in Aviation (said to have been taken in December 1936), the door does not have a window in it. (Oh, bless their little journalist hearts: there Amelia's Cord automobile is described as being painted light blue; in other places it's described as being yellow. Did she have it repainted?!?!? Did she have multiple Cord Phaetons?!?!?)

But as we know from pictures taken in 1937, a window was installed in that door.

[Tim Collins]

Ok, sure, I just don't remember the door window being mentioned.

[Martin X. Moleski, SJ]

... Amelia's Cord automobile is described as being painted light blue; in other places it's described as being yellow. Did she have it repainted?!?!? Did she have multiple Cord Phaetons?!?!?

The 1936 blue Cord might have belonged to her husband.

The claim repeated, with the explanation of "Eleanor blue."

Same car, same claim.

[Bruce Thomas]

... Amelia's Cord automobile is described as being painted light blue; in other places it's described as being yellow. Did she have it repainted?!?!? Did she have multiple Cord Phaetons?!?!?

The 1936 blue Cord might have belonged to her husband.

The claim repeated, with the explanation of "Eleanor blue."

Same car, same claim.

Not the same car as shown in the picture I linked to ... check out the venting pipes on the Eleanor blue car, versus the much plainer car in the photo with AE standing by the window-less door.

[Tim Collins]

This sketch shows how I think 2-2-V-1 fits in the horizontal direction. ...

Is the pitch of the rivet lines (deviation from parallel) really as pronounced on the 2-2-V-1 as your drawing suggest? If that could be corroborated forensically in photo, then... 

[Greg Daspit]

This sketch shows how I think 2-2-V-1 fits in the horizontal direction. ...

Is the pitch of the rivet lines (deviation from parallel) really as pronounced on the 2-2-V-1 as your drawing suggest? If that could be corroborated forensically in photo, then...

The pitch is usualy referred to as the spacing between the rivet holes. The lines may look like they deviate from parallel, but remember the tracing I made was from a photo so that could make them look that like they deviate more than they do. I believe Aris Scarla helped to clarify that the irregularities are slight in the The Riddle of Artifact #2-2-V-1
report.
“Careful measurement of the space between lines of rivets holes revealed that the lines do not taper or converge as previously believed – including by the National Transportation Safety Board (NTSB) Lab. There are, however, slight irregularities in the spacing between lines suggesting that the underlying structures, presumably stringers, were not precisely aligned. These irregularities suggest that 2-2-V-1 may be part of a repair”