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Author Topic: 2-2-V-1 - patch?  (Read 1126793 times)

Nathan Leaf

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Re: 2-2-V-1 - patch?
« Reply #960 on: November 11, 2014, 08:58:59 PM »

OK question is out of the current stream but is there evidence that warbirds were manufactured or patched with un painted aluminium during WW2?

I'm sure I've seen somewhere that it was a practice in the later stages of the war.

Well, ALL warbirds were manufactured with unpainted aluminum...   ;)

All warbirds in "hot zones" (i.e. areas of potential conflict in the 1930s, even if there was no official war) were painted with service branch or even local camouflage schemes. "Squadron Signal Air Force Colors Vol. 1 1926-1942" by Dana Bell is a great resource showing the evolution of Army Air Force paint schemes in the pre-war/early war period.  The Navy was experimenting during this period as well, of course.

It was not until 4 months after Pearl Harbor in March 1942 that the Joint Aircraft Committee had issued its standardized color schemes for the Army, Navy and RAF (including RAAF and RCAF) ... all aircraft in theater not conforming to these schemes were stripped and repainted by the end of June, 1942, with all aircraft rolling off the assembly lines painted in these schemes at the factory until January 1944.  The one lone exception I am aware of was in the Aleutians, where the enemy air strength was so weak as to not pose more than a nuisance, and operational losses were the primary driver of aircraft attrition, so with air superiority and a greater concern for reducing the weight of aircraft to improve performance (particularly on treacherous takeoff and landing roll-outs in consistently poor flying conditions), many American aircraft in the Aleutians were unpainted.  There was also the occasional C-47 General's transport that was unpainted, thought more attractive by the ground crews who maintained them and more "ballsy" by the Generals who flew around in them.

In December 1943, the War Department announced the removal of paint from aircraft to save weight, which primarily affected army aircraft rolling off the assembly lines beginning in 1944. By mid-1944, you see photos of B-17 squadrons where half of the planes are painted and half are in "naked" aluminum finish, and the prevalence of unpainted aluminum aircraft becomes very noticeable ... especially P-51s, P-38s and B-29s. Of course the Navy painted all of their aircraft through the end of the war, and even with the War Department announcement, many local army units preferred to continue with painted aircraft to the end of the war.
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Doug Ledlie

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Re: 2-2-V-1 - patch?
« Reply #961 on: November 11, 2014, 10:34:28 PM »

Quote
Posted by: Ric Gillespie
« on: Today at 09:02:26 PM »

I'm afraid I don't know what  "possible set of three March 37 photos that show window, window, nothing...with the plane looking like it hasn't rolled." you're talking about.

There was a word doc attached in earlier post but here's a collage pic of what I'm going on about. Certain aspects of the three photos seem remarkably similar to my untrained eye and may suggest they were all taken on the same day/location (unfortunately with different quality of hardware it would seem).

Point being if they all date to March 1937 it may tend to add credence to Mr. Long's, apparently unconfirmed, mention of a hatch being installed in place of the lav window in Jan/Feb 1937.  So what appears to be a window could be an open hatch.
« Last Edit: November 11, 2014, 10:41:49 PM by Doug Ledlie »
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Jeff Palshook

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Re: 2-2-V-1 - patch?
« Reply #962 on: November 12, 2014, 01:19:00 AM »

Doug,

In the 3rd (bottom) of the set of 3 Electra photos you posted, look at the tail of the aircraft.  It shows registration number R16020, not NR16020.  That 3rd photo was taken much earlier than the other 2 photos.  I believe the 3rd photo was taken in Cleveland, OH, some time in 1936.

Jeff P.
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Bessel P Sybesma

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Re: 2-2-V-1 - patch?
« Reply #963 on: November 12, 2014, 01:35:32 AM »

Doug,

In the 3rd (bottom) of the set of 3 Electra photos you posted, look at the tail of the aircraft.  It shows registration number R16020, not NR16020.  That 3rd photo was taken much earlier than the other 2 photos.  I believe the 3rd photo was taken in Cleveland, OH, some time in 1936.

Jeff P.

So that would be BEFORE the window was installed let alone the subsequent patch, right?
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JNev

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Re: 2-2-V-1 - patch?
« Reply #964 on: November 12, 2014, 05:12:39 AM »

Right.
- Jeff Neville

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JNev

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Re: 2-2-V-1 - patch?
« Reply #965 on: November 12, 2014, 05:39:29 AM »

Quote
If it's a crack in the window you may have just confirmed our hypothesis about the motivation for replacing the window with a patch.

Mighty straight line for it to be a crack.

I agree.  It also seems more coincident with other features like a vertical door frame in the lavatory bulkhead, which may be reflecting in some odd way in the photo.
- Jeff Neville

Former Member 3074R
 
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Ric Gillespie

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Re: 2-2-V-1 - patch?
« Reply #966 on: November 12, 2014, 05:54:25 AM »

Jeff Glickman says, "The white line in the left-hand black window appears to be an emulsion scratch."
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JNev

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Re: 2-2-V-1 - patch?
« Reply #967 on: November 12, 2014, 06:01:49 AM »

Makes sense.

Looking at old photos can almost make one believe in ghosts.  Well, maybe we should...
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Monty Fowler

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Re: 2-2-V-1 - patch?
« Reply #968 on: November 12, 2014, 06:55:15 AM »

Looking at old photos can almost make one believe in ghosts.  Well, maybe we should...

We ARE looking at ghosts, Jeff   ;D   Seventy-plus-year-old ghosts, to be precise. These new University of Miami photos are a very discreet time capsule, documentation of a very short period of time on one specific day in 1937 ( or so it appears to me). It is haunting, to me, to look at Amelia Earhart, waving from the top of her plane, surrounded by people eager to help, and think that in less than two months, she would enter the history books as arguably the most famous missing person in the world.

The new University of Miami photos are a piece of the puzzle. How important may depend on the interpretative magic of Jeff Glickman and the like. It still constantly amazes me that new material is STILL surfacing about Amelia Earhart and Fred Noonan.

LTM,
Monty Fowler, TIGHAR no. 2189 ECSP

Ex-TIGHAR member No. 2189 E C R SP, 1998-2016
 
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Patrick Dickson

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Re: 2-2-V-1 - patch?
« Reply #969 on: November 12, 2014, 07:07:14 AM »

Quote
Looking at old photos can almost make one believe in ghosts.  Well, maybe we should...
like this photo from the Purdue archives
« Last Edit: November 12, 2014, 07:10:44 AM by Patrick Dickson »
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Greg Daspit

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Re: 2-2-V-1 - patch?
« Reply #970 on: November 12, 2014, 08:02:29 AM »

Jeff Glickman says, "The white line in the left-hand black window appears to be an emulsion scratch."
Thank you Ric.
Thanks to Mr. Glickman as well.
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Ric Gillespie

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Re: 2-2-V-1 - patch?
« Reply #971 on: November 12, 2014, 08:36:19 AM »

Point being if they all date to March 1937 it may tend to add credence to Mr. Long's, apparently unconfirmed, mention of a hatch being installed in place of the lav window in Jan/Feb 1937.  So what appears to be a window could be an open hatch.

They were not all taken in March 1937.  The first two were taken on March 14, 1937 in Oakland prior to Earhart's first world flight attempt.  The third photo shows that airplane when it still had the R (Restricted) registration and the bar through the standard cabin window.  The Hooven Radio Compass antenna has not yet been installed so the photo date to earlier than October 1936.  The cowlings are painted as they were in September 1936 when Earhart participated in the Bendix Trophy cross-country race.

Long was simply wrong about the hatch, as he was about so many other things.
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Ric Gillespie

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Re: 2-2-V-1 - patch?
« Reply #972 on: November 12, 2014, 08:39:21 AM »

At some point we should probably publish a guide to dating photos of the Earhart Electra. Various antennas and windows came and went at various times and there seems to be nothing so common as a mis-captioned photo of the airplane. 
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Monty Fowler

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Re: 2-2-V-1 - patch?
« Reply #973 on: November 12, 2014, 09:35:05 AM »

At some point we should probably publish a guide to dating photos of the Earhart Electra. Various antennas and windows came and went at various times and there seems to be nothing so common as a mis-captioned photo of the airplane.

The Harney drawings might be a good place to start with that - it has a summary with 4 (?) side views showing the various configurations. If we do undertake such an effort, it would at least help date the tidal wave of photos.

LTM,
Monty Fowler, TIGHAR No. 2189 ECSP
Ex-TIGHAR member No. 2189 E C R SP, 1998-2016
 
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Ric Gillespie

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Re: 2-2-V-1 - patch?
« Reply #974 on: November 12, 2014, 09:39:43 AM »

I actually considered writing an entire book on the evolution of c/n 1055 from inception to disappearance. It's a fascinating story of experimentation, compromise, and administrative screw-ups.
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