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Author Topic: 2-2-V-1 - patch?  (Read 1126705 times)

Greg Daspit

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Re: 2-2-V-1 - patch?
« Reply #870 on: November 02, 2014, 08:28:17 AM »

  It would seem to me that it would have to be below the double staggered rivets on the bottom of the frame of the navigator's window, but on the other hand, I don't see the tab in the Darwin photo, which seems to have sufficient resolution for it to be visible.  Maybe the tab is actually the only surviving bit of the bottom of the patch?--but then what did the other line of 5/8th inch rivet holes seen on 22v1 attach to?--i maybe what is marked as 'additional stringer?' in one of the 'Smoking Gun' illustrations?  Could someone clarify this point?

Also, if the borders of the patch were the frame of the navigator's window, then why in 'Smoking Gun' does the patch appear to extend to Station 320?  The Darwin photo seems to show separation between station 320 and the window frame.
The artifact is closer to the camera so looks bigger than what is behind it. See the latest report.
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Ric Gillespie

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Re: 2-2-V-1 - patch?
« Reply #871 on: November 02, 2014, 08:43:14 AM »

I would appreciate it if you could provide answers to just a few questions about this taped off area:

I didn't do the taping.  Jeff Glickman did.  I'm sure Jeff will address the issue of dimensions in his report.
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Monty Fowler

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Re: 2-2-V-1 - patch?
« Reply #872 on: November 02, 2014, 12:25:55 PM »

If metal screws were used to hold the stringers in place, surely some remnants of thread should be visible in the holes?

Ummm ... no. 2-2-V-1 was riveted (as evidenced by the surviving rivet) around its circumference. Riveting to attach a patch was standard repair practice of the day, as it still is today. Unless you're using speed tape to repair a combat aircraft to flight status as quickly as possible  ;D

LTM, who gets tape stuck to him all the time,
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Bessel P Sybesma

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Re: 2-2-V-1 - patch?
« Reply #873 on: November 02, 2014, 01:43:45 PM »

If metal screws were used to hold the stringers in place, surely some remnants of thread should be visible in the holes?

Ummm ... no. 2-2-V-1 was riveted (as evidenced by the surviving rivet) around its circumference. Riveting to attach a patch was standard repair practice of the day, as it still is today. Unless you're using speed tape to repair a combat aircraft to flight status as quickly as possible  ;D

LTM, who gets tape stuck to him all the time,
Monty Fowler, TIGHAR No. 2189 ECSP

Well clearly the patch was rivetted to the airframe around its circumference, but the question raised above was about the stringers attached to the patch.
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Monty Fowler

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Re: 2-2-V-1 - patch?
« Reply #874 on: November 02, 2014, 03:18:22 PM »

And I apologizing for totally missing your question. Same answer, though. Rivets were used throughout.

LTM,
Monty Fowler, TIGHAR No. 2189 ECSP
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JNev

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Re: 2-2-V-1 - patch?
« Reply #875 on: November 02, 2014, 03:30:02 PM »

I'm a bit lost as to why we should think screws might have been used vs. rivets for the stiffeners.

I don't see how - those are 3/32" rivet holes so far as I can tell.  That would be a pretty small screw.

Were screws used, I'd think they'd show up mightily on some of the photos as more pronounced than rivets, which are rather diminutive as #3 brazier heads.
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Bessel P Sybesma

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Re: 2-2-V-1 - patch?
« Reply #876 on: November 02, 2014, 03:54:17 PM »

Bob Japundza put this forward in reply no 866 - it would provide a straightforward explanation how the stringers got detached from the patch without trace of corrosion of damage on the holes that held the rivets - or metal screws...
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Ric Gillespie

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Re: 2-2-V-1 - patch?
« Reply #877 on: November 02, 2014, 04:00:09 PM »

Bob Japundza put this forward in reply no 866 - it would provide a straightforward explanation how the stringers got detached from the patch without trace of corrosion of damage on the holes that held the rivets - or metal screws...

There's a better explanation that has recently come to light.  Stay tuned.
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Ron Lyons

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Re: 2-2-V-1 - patch?
« Reply #878 on: November 02, 2014, 04:42:41 PM »

To me (I'm certainly no expert) the absense of the stringers is not important.  Why?  ... because they're absent!  No matter how it happened, it DID happen.  So if this is off another plane or whatever other theory you can come up with, it obviously once was riveted to stringers, and now it's not, and that happened on a deserted island.  How that happened has no bearing on whether or not it was the patch panel on the Lockheed. It also could have happened in 1990.  I say that in jest but the point stands.   

So with that out of the way, another major problem that comes up is why would they have installed a stringer at the bottom of the patch panel, when there's clearly a supporting stringer there already?  My personal opinion (just speculation) imagining the situation if I was doing the repair would be this: The bottom stringer was double riveted, and when drilled out, may have been damaged or looked bad, or looked weak with the number of holes, so it was simply decided to add an extra stringer for 'fresh meat' so to speak to rivet that patch to at the bottom.  If you look at the beautiful photo of Amelia standing next to the window, you'll notice that bottom support had already been 'swiss cheese' 'd as a previous poster eloquently described it.  The top rivet line being so close to the top of the window isn't a problem for me; the bend was more severe up there and that could have been to help curve it in as suggested by the kind metalworker a few pages back. 

My final problem I see with it is, how did it survive but nothing else on the plane did?  I immediately would assume somebody literally kicked the piece off the side of the plane, as others have speculated.  I'm just a good old boy and will tell you this, I feel I could give it a good go and might not have much of a problem at all kicking that off the plane.  If I was stranded on an island I'd be trying to steal everything feasible off the plane, and a piece of sheetmetal would be attractive... especially one with a nice frame around it that I knew had been riveted on top.  It would almost be like a bullseye for my foot. 

It may have been easier to remove than even my John Wayne alter-ego can imagine... and there's something to be said for the fact that in general a full grown man 80 years ago was probably more fit than I am sitting behind this computer.  I feel I could kick the patch out fairly easily, and I also feel it would attract that if you were looking around the plane to scavenge things, and saw a screened over window opening. 

Once again you come back to, too, it ripped off of something.  Whether or not it was this plane we can't prove right now, but it was removed, jaggedly, bluntly, from *something*, and then had the stringers removed.  You can't really argue, honestly, that since it was ripped off a plane, it couldn't have been ripped off the Lockheed.  Of course it could!  All of those rivets ripped through the skin, on a deserted island, one way or the other.  I think the navigator could have done it, or Amelia herself could have done it no problem.  what else are you going to do?  After you've screamed for help for a day and then tried to kill crabs for a day you'd start looking at what you can steal off the plane before it floats off. 

With all that said, I have no evidence to back any of it up, just an active imagination!  This is not the smoking gun, it's just another in a long, long, long line of credible evidence that can be 90% proven to be what we suspect it is.  When you add all of that up, I think you'd have to be a really dedicated critic to not make the small leap of faith and admit that it appears she actually landed on that reef. 

Great work as always Ric, I've watched you on television and in news reports for years.  Best wishes on the next trip, i'll be donating to help out. 

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Ron Lyons

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Re: 2-2-V-1 - patch?
« Reply #879 on: November 02, 2014, 07:33:46 PM »

One thing I'd like to bring back up, is 'the sag'.  This could never be conclusive evidence, so it's really all just subjective opinion... but to me, the installed patch has a slight sag to it that's obvious, and the 22v1 piece has a similar sag.  The similarity I see, is the sheet, in the orientation that we're supposing it was mounted on the plane, has the same general curvature as the patch panel (and the side of the plane, of course) but also seems to have a similar 'sag' near the bottom.  Ultimately it's just a slight, u shaped bulge that runs pretty much the whole width of the piece, and again could never be measured or scientifically compared to the pictures we have... but to the naked eye, I think it's fairly apparent.

The sheet of metal has no doubt been bent and rebent for decades for various reasons, but it still retains the general curve of the sidewall, and in my opinion still retains the general almost imperceptible 'sag' the patch had. 

Again, just speculation and not scientific.  Curious if anybody else sees the same thing.  (the red circle is not mine, just reusing a previous poster's picture!)

« Last Edit: November 02, 2014, 07:35:23 PM by Ron Lyons »
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Sean Sanfilippo

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Re: 2-2-V-1 - patch?
« Reply #880 on: November 02, 2014, 08:57:35 PM »

New forum member here, but have been reading the website with interest the last few years.  In a prior career I was an A&P with some experience in deconstructing GA aircraft for their scrap value.  While I personally have a hard time envisioning "kicking out" a section of fuselage skin constructed in a semi-monocoque manner based on this experience, the "patch" may be one of a few areas on the Electra that would be a good candidate for obtaining a sheet of aluminum, for whatever purpose the individual desiring it envisioned.

If I place myself in a similar scenario as our flyers, with the prospect of losing voice communication once the radio is disabled by exhausting the fuel supply to keep the battery charged,  by rising tides shorting the electrical system, or the destruction of the aircraft by wave action, my thought process turns to "How do I signal any aircraft overhead or a ship on the horizon to my presence?"

My answer is that I need a reflecting device during the day, and a sheet of polished, unpainted ALCLAD would seem to be a ready-made signaling device, especially one already formed with a curve. I don’t recall anyone on the forum addressing this, so forgive me if this has been already discussed. In this hypothesis, the patch has several attributes that make it an attractive candidate to repurpose into a signaling device.

1.  As a scab patch replacing a window in the fuselage, my assumption is that it doesn’t share the full structural rigidity of any other piece of fuselage or wing skin, making it easier to remove.
2. The dimensions and assumed weight make the patch something that could be handled and aimed.
3. While it probably won't truly ever be known, given the expediency of the repair in Miami, the interior of the patch is likely exposed aluminum with no fabric covering or trim piece.  In this case, the supporting stringers, frame and rivet shop heads are exposed/accessible.

For those with more experience and knowledge on the subject, can you lend your critical eye to the above supposition and perhaps answer some questions:

If there were no spare ALCLAD sheets on board the aircraft for small repairs at an intermediate stop (I believe on the first attempt that ended at Ford Island, the military inventoried a couple of aluminum sheets being flown as spares), are there other areas of the fuselage or wing structure that would be more easily removed to serve as an impromptu signaling device?  If spare aluminum sheets are onboard, then this hypothesis makes no sense as the amount of effort required to remove the patch seems counter-intuitive.  There may have course been other reasons to remove it (cross-ventilation is one suggestion I’ve read earlier on in this thread).

Were there any tools/ improvised tools on board that could have assisted in punching out the rivets to assist in the patch’s removal?  Without tools, I imagine a concerted effort using feet or shoulders repeatedly to strike the patch *might* get the job done for someone so inclined.

In this thought exercise, I’m trying to come up with a reasonable explanation why this one piece of aluminum may have come to be intentionally removed from the aircraft and ended up on the island. 
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Krystal McGinty-Carter

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Re: 2-2-V-1 - patch?
« Reply #881 on: November 02, 2014, 09:38:53 PM »

The "how" of it will come in time. 

As to "Why?"  Im afraid the only person who has that answer is Amelia.
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Ingo Prangenberg

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Re: 2-2-V-1 - patch?
« Reply #882 on: November 03, 2014, 09:59:40 AM »

A hard landing, creating stress in that section of the plane, may have already torn one or two sides of the sheet, making kicking it out not necessary or at least less difficult (I would never kick it out by foot though, don't want to shred my leg on the exposed aluminum edges!) That hard landing may have seriously injured Fred too.

I doubt I'm the first person to have stated this thought though....   
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Ric Gillespie

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Re: 2-2-V-1 - patch?
« Reply #883 on: November 03, 2014, 10:05:01 AM »

The attached Word document describes a new hypothesis to explain the absence of rivets in the artifact.
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JNev

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Re: 2-2-V-1 - patch?
« Reply #884 on: November 03, 2014, 10:15:24 AM »

The attached Word document describes a new hypothesis to explain the absence of rivets in the artifact.

Outstanding work and well stated. 

My first thought as I got into opening was 'what about the surviving rivet' - which is well answered.

This scan of the surviving rivet is good news. 
- Jeff Neville

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