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Author Topic: 2-2-V-1 - patch?  (Read 1126590 times)

JNev

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Re: 2-2-V-1 - patch?
« Reply #750 on: October 15, 2014, 11:48:33 AM »

At the crux here I seem to have needed to correct the now-emerging labored assumption that we unanimously agreed 2-2-V-1 came from a factory setting: no, 'we' did not; we did agree it did not appear to be the work that produced the war time repairs we were able to study.  I respect Monty's belief, but suggest that his impression as given in that sentence is his own; it certainly was not and is not mine.  If I've somehow erred until now in what the commission believed I ascribed to, the record is now corrected.

Thank you for that Jeff.  As you'll recall, it was FAA Flight Standards District Manager Aris Scarla who, in Dayton, noted the precision of the rivet pitch and likened it to factory-quality work.   Aris was with us in Wichita. We now have a much better understanding of what was done to install the window and later the patch.  The rivet pitch on the longitudinal stiffeners is, indeed, precise work but not beyond the capabilities of a skilled mechanic.  Aris is of the opinion that the artifact is the patch.

No problem - and I hope I didn't create any ambiguity.  That was to me a unique and great team experience in Dayton, well worth the time and travel. 

Scarla is a keen and very precise man in his observations and analysis.  I noticed he is also not one to become easily excited about an idea without strong supportive evidence, and that he is frank where any doubt may exist.  That equals tremendous and objective credibility in my view, a credit to your Wichita effort. 

Aris did clearly demonstrate the precision work in the fastener rows that I had not noticed before - very evenly spaced rivets along very straight lines.  That portion of the work - as you've pointed out, if taken alone might easily point to USAAF discipline.  I merely needed to make the distinction that we do have oddly (but slightly) divergent / convergent (depending on observed vector) fastener lines (relative to each other) - which strongly suggests a 'Miami patch' scenario to me.  We also have the one 'surviving' rivet that happened to be rather hobnailed instead of a clean buck, which suggests 'field work' that may have been a bit damped due to lack of an experienced helper (been there and coped with that too, you work with whom you have to get the bird moved).

Apparently now having observed this in the context of a real, very accessible L10, you all were similarly impressed.  I don't know what the public reading will be - and that's always the long pole in these things.  But I remain very excited about the prospects and very much look forward to the report.  You guys are much appreciated for going to earth in Wichita to do this, as Wichita Air Service remains so as well, of course.

I'd like to add that I realize I throw a fair number of abstract observations in at times - like the oddity of the rivet row placements and the mal-bucked rivet, but these are to me tell-tale signs that underscore my suspicions about 2-2-V-1 as potentially being just what I have hoped it to be (openly admitted here more than once).  Those things alone are not 'proof', but if one can add up enough 'coinkydinks' a story gets underlined; add more convincing finds and the story might go to bold print.  Now we have your first-hand observations - looking forward to that. 

In noticing these things, I am reminded of hands on experiences and real outcomes due to circumstances.  As such, 2-2-V-1 has emerged to look to me like a 'patch' that was executed primarily by a skilled mechanic, but one who had to deal with a) hand-fitted realities in making a flat sheet lie well along a slightly compound-curved surface, b) without excessive oil-canning and puckering as a result, and c) verly likely a less-than fully skilled helper to buck rivets, etc.  Been there more than once... and not a bad job in the least, just 'signed' by the above process IMO.
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« Last Edit: October 15, 2014, 11:56:09 AM by Jeffrey Neville »
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Mark Appel

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Re: 2-2-V-1 - patch?
« Reply #751 on: October 15, 2014, 12:23:58 PM »

If it is reasonable to think that the 2-2-v-1 was a repair to the Electra done in Miami, isn’t it also reasonable to think that 2-2-V-1 could have been a repair to a WW2 era plane done by USAAF personnel?

In and of itself, that seems a reasonable conjecture. But, other technical aspects aside, it should be pointed out that we have not yet seen a WWII aircraft that could be a donor for 2-2-V-1. One of the big surprises (to me at any rate) was the aircraft inspections at Dayton didn't reveal anything even close...
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Jeff Lange

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Re: 2-2-V-1 - patch?
« Reply #752 on: October 15, 2014, 02:55:19 PM »

2-2-V-1 photos showing "D" posted on page 44 of this thread by Mark/Ric appear to show a smaller font "M" to the right of the D

Looks to be right where we see the "M" in the Reg. TM stamp on the Alclad in the Atka Island B-24D for example.

Does this tell us anything assuming I'm not seeing things?

I want to bring up a point no one has mentioned regarding the possible "M" etc.  Have we seen any examples of stencils that show the trademark registered signs/letters? If not, then I don't think you will find them on the artifact. More likely just random marks or scratches. Input anyone? Bueller? Bueller?

I will also agree with Mark that in all the examples we examined in Dayton, we found that the spacing of the rows on 2-2-V-1 were closer together than any examples we checked. The 1 inch pitch of the rivets was also different than the aircraft we checked. It was really amazing that none of those craft were even close.
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Ric Gillespie

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Re: 2-2-V-1 - patch?
« Reply #753 on: October 15, 2014, 04:28:46 PM »

I will also agree with Mark that in all the examples we examined in Dayton, we found that the spacing of the rows on 2-2-V-1 were closer together than any examples we checked. The 1 inch pitch of the rivets was also different than the aircraft we checked. It was really amazing that none of those craft were even close.


As Aris Scarla explained to us, each aircraft type has a fingerprint. An aircraft fingerprint is the unique combination of requirements and configuration which results in a combination of aluminum skin type and thickness, circumferential and stringer spacing, rivet spacing, and rivet type and size that are unique to a specific aircraft type. 2-2-V-1 is a fingerprint.  We couldn't find a match to its fingerprint in Dayton. We found a match in Wichita, not just to a particular aircraft type but to a unique, one-off component of an individual example of that type.
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JNev

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Re: 2-2-V-1 - patch?
« Reply #754 on: October 15, 2014, 04:35:13 PM »

2-2-V-1 photos showing "D" posted on page 44 of this thread by Mark/Ric appear to show a smaller font "M" to the right of the D

Looks to be right where we see the "M" in the Reg. TM stamp on the Alclad in the Atka Island B-24D for example.

Does this tell us anything assuming I'm not seeing things?

I want to bring up a point no one has mentioned regarding the possible "M" etc.  Have we seen any examples of stencils that show the trademark registered signs/letters? If not, then I don't think you will find them on the artifact. More likely just random marks or scratches. Input anyone? Bueller? Bueller?

I will also agree with Mark that in all the examples we examined in Dayton, we found that the spacing of the rows on 2-2-V-1 were closer together than any examples we checked. The 1 inch pitch of the rivets was also different than the aircraft we checked. It was really amazing that none of those craft were even close.

Odd thing is, while it probably is not on 2-2-V-1 (but maybe I'm wrong), it was a real feature somewhere along the line because Doug Ledlie is not seeing things, his post shows pictures with the "Registered TM" clearly there on the piece of metal he cited.

What I believe we have seen is about a gazillion (ok, a bit of exaggeration...) variations in font / print 'standards' - IF there was much of a 'standard' at that.  I have gotten the notion that what we've often taken as 'standard' was really a limited number of 'lot' examples that for whatever reason have been photographed a lot.  For instance, the old Lockheeds were photographed in fair detail a good bit on the line; I found one example of a Boeing 314 Clipper wing interior (circa 1938) with fonts like I'd not seen before on a box structure, but nothing on other wing structures, which appeared painted over, perhaps.  I've found precisely zip on the old Sikorsky's of the era, so far.  Nothing on Martins either.

Which is all certainly far from conclusive, but I am convinced that there was more variety in print styling on metal than I ever would have guessed a year ago.

Just goes to show ya, studyin' counts... knowwhutahmean?
- Jeff Neville

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« Last Edit: October 15, 2014, 04:41:56 PM by Jeffrey Neville »
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Jeff Carter

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Re: 2-2-V-1 - patch?
« Reply #755 on: October 15, 2014, 08:11:53 PM »

Which is all certainly far from conclusive, but I am convinced that there was more variety in print styling on metal than I ever would have guessed a year ago.

During WWII, aluminum stencil markings seem to have a number of variations. 

However, during the 1930s, the markings were very consistent in terms of font and size.  During the 1930s, ALCLAD was labelled "ALC" followed by the alloy identification (for example, ALC24ST, ALC24SRT, etc.)  See http://aluminummarkings.wordpress.com/2014/04/06/1930s-alcoa-markings/
« Last Edit: October 15, 2014, 08:13:28 PM by Jeff Carter »
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Ric Gillespie

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Re: 2-2-V-1 - patch?
« Reply #756 on: October 15, 2014, 08:31:44 PM »

During WWII, aluminum stencil markings seem to have a number of variations. 

However, during the 1930s, the markings were very consistent in terms of font and size.  During the 1930s, ALCLAD was labelled "ALC" followed by the alloy identification (for example, ALC24ST, ALC24SRT, etc.)  See http://aluminummarkings.wordpress.com/2014/04/06/1930s-alcoa-markings/

Is the basis for your categorical statement the handful of photos shown on that website?  Whose website is that anyway?  Yours?
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Monty Fowler

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Re: 2-2-V-1 - patch?
« Reply #757 on: October 16, 2014, 07:06:18 AM »

At the crux here I seem to have needed to correct the now-emerging labored assumption that we unanimously agreed 2-2-V-1 came from a factory setting: no, 'we' did not; we did agree it did not appear to be the work that produced the war time repairs we were able to study.  I respect Monty's belief, but suggest that his impression as given in that sentence is his own; it certainly was not and is not mine.  If I've somehow erred until now in what the commission believed I ascribed to, the record is now corrected.

Thank you for that Jeff.  As you'll recall, it was FAA Flight Standards District Manager Aris Scarla who, in Dayton, noted the precision of the rivet pitch and likened it to factory-quality work.   Aris was with us in Wichita. We now have a much better understanding of what was done to install the window and later the patch.  The rivet pitch on the longitudinal stiffeners is, indeed, precise work but not beyond the capabilities of a skilled mechanic. Aris is of the opinion that the artifact is the patch.

Just to clarify - or further muddy the waters  ;D - At Dayton, I was repeating and emphasizing Aris' observation on the quality of the work on The Patch. Since there had been so much debate on whether The Patch could have been a wartime field repair from Canton or a similar place, the conclusion by Aris and the USAF museum experts that The Patch did not fit that criteria was, to me, very important. And I stand by my elaboration on Aris' statement that The Patch "was created under controlled conditions." The metal shop, or even the basic shop, of either of the airports in Miami where The Patch might have been made qualifies as "controlled conditions" to me. Not a factory, to be sure, but still, conditions vastly different from some guy trying to rivet a piece of metal over a very large hole while the aircraft is out in the open somewhere in the Pacific, so it will be ready for the next combat mission.

LTM, who knows that an expert is someone who knows when to call in the experts,
Monty Fowler, TIGHAR No. 2189 ECSP
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Ric Gillespie

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Re: 2-2-V-1 - patch?
« Reply #758 on: October 16, 2014, 08:06:05 AM »

I favor the website - and its continued development - IF enough examples can be added to lift us beyond what we've already seen and provide a much greater variety of examples, and IF conclusions are to be implied, definitive sources are quoted.  Most if not all of these photos in the site have already appeared here. 

But to their credit, whomever developed what we see so far has apparently left the door open for refinement

Jeff Neville is the very soul of congeniality and empathy.  If someone snuck up behind him and hit him on the head with a hammer his reaction (after he came to) would likely be to compliment his attacker on his stealth and skill at blunt trauma.  As most here have probably noticed, I am less forgiving, perhaps because I have the responsibility of maintaining the integrity and credibility of TIGHAR's investigations.

Jeff Carter makes a categorical statement of fact - "During the 1930s, ALCLAD was labelled "ALC" followed by the alloy identification (for example, ALC24ST, ALC24SRT, etc.)" and cites a source which turns out to be nothing but a collection of images assembled by an anonymous someone specifically for the purpose of attacking TIGHAR. His argument comes down to a fundamental logical fallacy:  "Some X are Y.  Therefore, all X are Y."   His posting is, at best, uneducated and, at worst, intentionally disingenuous.   Either way, making unsupportable statements of "fact" on the this Forum has long been grounds for monitoring to insure that such misleading postings do not recur.

We continue to encourage research into the significance of the markings visible on 2-2-V-1.  Trolls need not apply.
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Mark Appel

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Re: 2-2-V-1 - patch?
« Reply #759 on: October 16, 2014, 10:26:36 AM »

Which is all certainly far from conclusive, but I am convinced that there was more variety in print styling on metal than I ever would have guessed a year ago.

During WWII, aluminum stencil markings seem to have a number of variations. 

However, during the 1930s, the markings were very consistent in terms of font and size.  During the 1930s, ALCLAD was labelled "ALC" followed by the alloy identification (for example, ALC24ST, ALC24SRT, etc.)  See http://aluminummarkings.wordpress.com/2014/04/06/1930s-alcoa-markings/

It's vexing to me there are as yet uncounted variables that HAVE to be characterized before we can say anything definitive about aircraft aluminum labeling and associated font and font substyles in the 30s.

Here's just some of what we don't know:

1) Variability in corporate brand standards for aluminum manufacturers and how they evolved or devolved over the decade--and the directives for labeling associated with them.
2) Variability associated with transitions in brand standards--transition times, disposition of old stock etc
3) Variability in application of labeling from plant-to-plant, run-to-run, and changes over time
4) Variability associated with product -- manufacturing product vs replacement product
5) Variability associated with changes in federal trademark law impacting marks (TM etc)
6) Variability associated with prototyping and trial runs
7) Variability in equipment maintenance and failure
8) Variability we haven't even identified yet

My point is this: We can observe and document. We can make broad and general statements based on those observations. We can guess. We can argue. But when it comes to the voodoo of aircraft aluminum product labeling, it is well-nigh impossible for anyone to make definitive statements about the practice. Not yet anyway.

If anyone can produce original source documentation such as published contemporary brand standards, application instructions, legal directives (not just random photographs) that will be a good start. I ain't seen none of that.
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Jeff Buttke

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Re: 2-2-V-1 - patch?
« Reply #760 on: October 16, 2014, 12:29:08 PM »

Jeff Carter makes a categorical statement of fact - "During the 1930s, ALCLAD was labelled "ALC" followed by the alloy identification (for example, ALC24ST, ALC24SRT, etc.)" and cites a source which turns out to be nothing but a collection of images assembled by an anonymous someone specifically for the purpose of attacking TIGHAR. His argument comes down to a fundamental logical fallacy:  "Some X are Y.  Therefore, all X are Y."   His posting is, at best, uneducated and, at worst, intentionally disingenuous. 

Not to mention several of the images date from the 40's.
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Monty Fowler

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Re: 2-2-V-1 - patch?
« Reply #761 on: October 16, 2014, 01:13:34 PM »


It's vexing to me there are as yet uncounted variables that HAVE to be characterized before we can say anything definitive about aircraft aluminum labeling and associated font and font substyles in the 30s.

Here's just some of what we don't know:

8) Variability we haven't even identified yet

Rest assured, Mark, TECTIC, The Earhart Conspiracy Theory Industrial Complex, will enthusiastically inject more variables than anyone here could possibly imagine into whatever TIGHAR asserts about The Patch. Doesn't matter if they make even a shred of sense. Doesn't matter if some are so implausible as to be ridiculous. Doesn't matter if they are directly contraindicated of known and verifiable facts. The only thing that matters is throwin'  'em up against the wall. Regardless of whether they stick or not.

Which is going to make the next few months interesting, to put it mildly. Oh well, more discussion fodder for around the holiday dinner tables!

LTM,
Monty Fowler, TIGHAR No. 2189 ECSP
Ex-TIGHAR member No. 2189 E C R SP, 1998-2016
 
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Ric Gillespie

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Re: 2-2-V-1 - patch?
« Reply #762 on: October 16, 2014, 01:28:47 PM »

The only thing that matters is throwin'  'em up against the wall. Regardless of whether they stick or not.

Well, they're going to have to find some other wall to throw them against because we're not going to tolerate them here. As we always have, we'll welcome skepticism, we'll encourage honest questions, and we'll do our best to answer legitimate challenges to our conclusions. What we will not do is accommodate trolls and the droppings they throw.
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Mark Appel

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Re: 2-2-V-1 - patch?
« Reply #763 on: October 16, 2014, 03:21:55 PM »


It's vexing to me there are as yet uncounted variables that HAVE to be characterized before we can say anything definitive about aircraft aluminum labeling and associated font and font substyles in the 30s.

Here's just some of what we don't know:

8) Variability we haven't even identified yet

Rest assured, Mark, TECTIC, The Earhart Conspiracy Theory Industrial Complex, will enthusiastically inject more variables than anyone here could possibly imagine into whatever TIGHAR asserts about The Patch. Doesn't matter if they make even a shred of sense. Doesn't matter if some are so implausible as to be ridiculous. Doesn't matter if they are directly contraindicated of known and verifiable facts. The only thing that matters is throwin'  'em up against the wall. Regardless of whether they stick or not.

Which is going to make the next few months interesting, to put it mildly. Oh well, more discussion fodder for around the holiday dinner tables!

LTM,
Monty Fowler, TIGHAR No. 2189 ECSP

Right you are, Monty!
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« Last Edit: October 16, 2014, 03:23:36 PM by Mark Appel »
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Roger London

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Re: 2-2-V-1 - patch?
« Reply #764 on: October 16, 2014, 04:20:38 PM »

2-2-V-1 PROVEN at last, a HUGE well done all round.

Now our respects to Amelia and Fred, not least here in TIGHAR, and then by way of a suitable and substantial epitaph on Niku to their tragic demise. Amen


What a fantastic project, Roger
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