Advanced search  
Pages: 1 ... 48 49 [50] 51 52 ... 85   Go Down

Author Topic: 2-2-V-1 - patch?  (Read 1126709 times)

JNev

  • T5
  • *****
  • Posts: 778
  • It's a GOOD thing to be in the cornfield...
Re: 2-2-V-1 - patch?
« Reply #735 on: October 14, 2014, 07:06:41 AM »


I vote to support a PR firm to take the data we have uncovered and turn it over to them to perpetuate an ongoing funding program to get to the bottom of this major historic mystery.  Ric, you know how much I have confidence in your ability to led the TIGHAR Team on this issue but you must also admit that you are a little hesitant in turning over control to others when it comes to the coup de  grace.
 It’s time to step back my friend and let people that do this for a living to step in and help us put the final touches on the search.  Remember the objective:  Get the funds necessary to go and find the plane!

Ted Campbell


Uh oh, sounds like fingernails on a chalkboard to me...

Could not agree more.  I am excited about what will be released, but full of respect that it has to cross a very high bar.  The one way to destroy our credibility in this thing is to demand an outcome instead of letting what research has found to simply speak for itself.  Our job, as I see it, is to try to investigate with integrity and let the results be seen for what they are: it is worth nothing beyond our pages if the public cannot see what Ric, Aris and Jeff G. saw and find the same conclusion, if and as they will.
- Jeff Neville

Former Member 3074R
 
Logged

Monty Fowler

  • T5
  • *****
  • Posts: 1078
  • "The real answer is always the right answer."
Re: 2-2-V-1 - patch?
« Reply #736 on: October 14, 2014, 08:06:06 AM »

Experts built the Titanic. Amateurs built The Ark.

Maybe that's simplistic, but I agree that the facts, whatever they are, will be the facts, and they are more than capable of speaking for themselves.

LTM,
Monty Fowler, TIGHAR No. 2189 ECSP
Ex-TIGHAR member No. 2189 E C R SP, 1998-2016
 
Logged

Hal Banks

  • T1
  • *
  • Posts: 25
Re: 2-2-V-1 - patch?
« Reply #737 on: October 14, 2014, 08:29:02 AM »

I've always wondered what happened to the plexiglass piece that was replaced by the patch.  Doesn't it seem likely that someone would have saved it as a souvenir, a valuable collectible from AE's plane?  If it could be found, would there be any value as a comparison piece to our artifact?

Just killing time waiting for the report  :)
Hal
TIGHAR #2971
 
Logged

Ric Gillespie

  • Executive Director
  • Administrator
  • *
  • Posts: 6105
  • "Do not try. Do or do not. There is no try" Yoda
Re: 2-2-V-1 - patch?
« Reply #738 on: October 14, 2014, 09:18:33 AM »

Doesn't it seem likely that someone would have saved it as a souvenir, a valuable collectible from AE's plane?

To save it as a souvenir, somebody would have to
A. know about it
and
B. have access to it

The installation appears to have been done privately and quietly. Nobody in the public or the press seems to have even noticed that the window was gone and replaced with a patch.
Logged

Hal Banks

  • T1
  • *
  • Posts: 25
Re: 2-2-V-1 - patch?
« Reply #739 on: October 14, 2014, 09:42:54 AM »

I was specifically thinking the mechanic(s) that actually handled the replacement, not the general public.
Hal
TIGHAR #2971
 
Logged
Re: 2-2-V-1 - patch?
« Reply #740 on: October 14, 2014, 09:48:19 AM »


I vote to support a PR firm to take the data we have uncovered and turn it over to them to perpetuate an ongoing funding program to get to the bottom of this major historic mystery.  Ric, you know how much I have confidence in your ability to led the TIGHAR Team on this issue but you must also admit that you are a little hesitant in turning over control to others when it comes to the coup de  grace.
 It’s time to step back my friend and let people that do this for a living to step in and help us put the final touches on the search.  Remember the objective:  Get the funds necessary to go and find the plane!

Ted Campbell


Uh oh, sounds like fingernails on a chalkboard to me...

Could not agree more.  I am excited about what will be released, but full of respect that it has to cross a very high bar.  The one way to destroy our credibility in this thing is to demand an outcome instead of letting what research has found to simply speak for itself.  Our job, as I see it, is to try to investigate with integrity and let the results be seen for what they are: it is worth nothing beyond our pages if the public cannot see what Ric, Aris and Jeff G. saw and find the same conclusion, if and as they will.

If the public cannot see what Ric, Aris and Jeff saw (and if they are RIGHT), it's no problem. Only a few persons have to see it, those persons who will donate enough money to find the Electra! (It MUST be there, if Ric is RIGHT!)
Oskar, 4421A
Logged

Monty Fowler

  • T5
  • *****
  • Posts: 1078
  • "The real answer is always the right answer."
Re: 2-2-V-1 - patch?
« Reply #741 on: October 14, 2014, 09:49:38 AM »

Hal - at first the thinking was that maybe Pan Am mechanics did the patch because they had a large facility in the Miami area. The Pan Am archives were checked out, and other than newspaper clipping-type memorabilia, nothing was found. There was some indication that a large amount of the archived materials were purged after WW II.

Then the thinking was that perhaps the man who had the FBO at the airport where Earhart had parked the Electra would have saved something having to do with work on said Electra. Those archives were also checked out, and other than newspaper clipping-type memorabilia, nothing was found.

I agree, not being able to nail down the exact, specific, obviously-had-to-be-Amelian's-plane documents with regards to The Patch is a potential hole that TIGHAR's legions of detractors will be more than happy to try and drive a Mack truck through. We have to stick with the known facts, the preponderance of evidence, and the simplest explanation for what we have found in order to make our case.

Or so it seems to me.

LTM, who sneezes a lot from dusty file boxes,
Monty Fowler, TIGHAR No. 2189 ECSP

Ex-TIGHAR member No. 2189 E C R SP, 1998-2016
 
Logged

Ric Gillespie

  • Executive Director
  • Administrator
  • *
  • Posts: 6105
  • "Do not try. Do or do not. There is no try" Yoda
Re: 2-2-V-1 - patch?
« Reply #742 on: October 14, 2014, 09:50:00 AM »

I was specifically thinking the mechanic(s) that actually handled the replacement, not the general public.

Of course we don't know for sure, but the mechanic who most probably handled the replacement was Earhart's own mechanic Bo McKneely.  Not much reason for him to keep souvenirs.
Logged

Steve Lee

  • T2
  • **
  • Posts: 81
  • I am under moderation
Re: 2-2-V-1 - patch?
« Reply #743 on: October 14, 2014, 10:05:57 AM »

The Tighar Bulletin titled ‘A Smoking Gun?’ shows the photo Jeff Glickman derived from the Miami photo, with the camera-induced distortion removed. Superimposed on this photo is the photo of Ric pressing 22v1 against the New England Electra; this makes it hard to see where the lines of rivets are in Mr. Glickman’s distortion-corrected version of the original photo.

I suggest that the new 2-2-v-1 bulletin show Jeff Glickman’s improved photo, sans markings that would make it hard to see those confirmed rivet lines for ourselves?  Skeptic that I am, still wonder if what are taken to be rivet lines might actually be reflections of clouds in the scene behind the photographer.
Logged

Steve Lee

  • T2
  • **
  • Posts: 81
  • I am under moderation
Re: 2-2-V-1 - patch?
« Reply #744 on: October 14, 2014, 05:30:40 PM »


According to the Tighar Bulletin titled ‘The Riddle of Artifact #2-2-V-1’ the opinion of the experts who examined 2-2-v-1 was

The pitch (interval between rivets) of the #3 rivets is precisely and consistently 1 inch. This level of precision suggests factory-quality work. By contrast, the pitch of the staggered double row of #5 rivets is irregular and was probably dictated by features in the underlying structure that had to be avoided.

At the time, the 2-2-V-1 Commission was pondering 2-2-V-1, these opinions were arguments against 2-2-v-1 being a repair to a WW2 airplane by USAAF personnel; as 2-2-V-1 Commission member Monty Fowler stated:

"To me, the most relevant new fact that developed as a result of this field trip was the unanimous conclusion that 2-2-V-1 is NOT a USAAF field-applied or field-depot level repair. It was created under controlled conditions in a factory. That narrows down the point of origin possibilities considerably.”

So, was the 2-2-V-1 Commission wrong in unanimously concluding that 2-2-v-1 was fabricated in a factory?

If it is reasonable to think that the 2-2-v-1 was a repair to the Electra done in Miami, isn’t it also reasonable to think that 2-2-V-1 could have been a repair to a WW2 era plane done by USAAF personnel?
Logged

Ric Gillespie

  • Executive Director
  • Administrator
  • *
  • Posts: 6105
  • "Do not try. Do or do not. There is no try" Yoda
Re: 2-2-V-1 - patch?
« Reply #745 on: October 14, 2014, 06:11:58 PM »

So, was the 2-2-V-1 Commission wrong in unanimously concluding that 2-2-v-1 was fabricated in a factory?

Apparently.  We've been wrong before.

If it is reasonable to think that the 2-2-v-1 was a repair to the Electra done in Miami, isn’t it also reasonable to think that 2-2-V-1 could have been a repair to a WW2 era plane done by USAAF personnel?

Yes, if the accuracy of the rivet pitch was the only factor to be considered.
Logged

JNev

  • T5
  • *****
  • Posts: 778
  • It's a GOOD thing to be in the cornfield...
Re: 2-2-V-1 - patch?
« Reply #746 on: October 14, 2014, 08:53:44 PM »


According to the Tighar Bulletin titled ‘The Riddle of Artifact #2-2-V-1’ the opinion of the experts who examined 2-2-v-1 was

The pitch (interval between rivets) of the #3 rivets is precisely and consistently 1 inch. This level of precision suggests factory-quality work. By contrast, the pitch of the staggered double row of #5 rivets is irregular and was probably dictated by features in the underlying structure that had to be avoided.

At the time, the 2-2-V-1 Commission was pondering 2-2-V-1, these opinions were arguments against 2-2-v-1 being a repair to a WW2 airplane by USAAF personnel; as 2-2-V-1 Commission member Monty Fowler stated:

"To me, the most relevant new fact that developed as a result of this field trip was the unanimous conclusion that 2-2-V-1 is NOT a USAAF field-applied or field-depot level repair. It was created under controlled conditions in a factory. That narrows down the point of origin possibilities considerably.”

So, was the 2-2-V-1 Commission wrong in unanimously concluding that 2-2-v-1 was fabricated in a factory?

If it is reasonable to think that the 2-2-v-1 was a repair to the Electra done in Miami, isn’t it also reasonable to think that 2-2-V-1 could have been a repair to a WW2 era plane done by USAAF personnel?

With all due respect to you, Steve, and Monty's statement, and with regard to Ric's reply - as I see it "It was created under controlled conditions in a factory" was purely Monty's statement, not the commission's unanimous statement.  If I've erred in that understanding until now, the record may be corrected henceforth.

The commission's position as I understood it was that we did not see 2-2-V-1 as consistent with any of the USAAF repairs we saw in Dayton, examples of which there were many.  Personally, I've never believed that 2-2-V-1 was fabricated in a factory, although it bears evidence of both expediency (slightly irregular line spacing, hobbed rivet tail) and good craftsmanship (neatly spaced holes, straight fastener lines), IMO. 

To suggest that the neatness of the fastener rows (straight, well spaced) leans toward USAAF exclusivity would be a miscarriage: while much of the war era work displayed something approaching that level of attention, other examples were clearly a bit more improvised and displayed more expedient patterns.  Those who worked metal in the 30's were hardly primitives - many could easily match USAAF efforts IMO, so this approach to the matter can hardly be conclusive as to disclaiming a Miami-effected patch.

What is most vital in my mind is that after an extensive hands-on, eyeballs up close review of probably hundreds of repairs and skin sections on dozens of ships of various types - including a painstaking review of the types known to have been in the area of the Phoenix group, not a single one provided a truly apparent nesting site for a piece like 2-2-V-1 once the scale came out.  Same for underlying structures - even the 'lightly built' B-24 exhibited a heavier construction methodology than 2-2-V-1 suggests. 

It remains remarkable to me that the unique lav window of NR16020 just happens to provide a 'nest' of great potential, whatever one chooses to make of that in their own reading.  People will no doubt again point to B-17 outer wing panels, and here and there on the B-24, etc.  Knock yourselves out - I've already climbed, poked, shone light and laid scale and camera to these and others, and 2-2-V-1 does not come close.  If it came from such a beast, there had to have been a bastardized structure there for it to nest to - rather like the bastard window in Earhart's plane that gave us an idea of just where such an oddball as 2-2-V-1 may have originated.

All just MHO, of course.  At the crux here I seem to have needed to correct the now-emerging labored assumption that we unanimously agreed 2-2-V-1 came from a factory setting: no, 'we' did not; we did agree it did not appear to be the work that produced the war time repairs we were able to study.  I respect Monty's belief, but suggest that his impression as given in that sentence is his own; it certainly was not and is not mine.  If I've somehow erred until now in what the commission believed I ascribed to, the record is now corrected.
- Jeff Neville

Former Member 3074R
 
Logged

Jerry Germann

  • TIGHAR member
  • *
  • Posts: 421
  • Go Deep
Re: 2-2-V-1 - patch?
« Reply #747 on: October 14, 2014, 09:12:27 PM »

As per the image/ images Jeff Glickman is studying...... is the shiny Miami patch photo the main/ sole image that is under study to see if it's characteristics match the artifact? The final takeoff video , that Jeff studied to determine antenna separation, contains several frames at around 30 , 31 , 48, 49, 50 seconds into it, that show a glimpse....
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GaMp5SibXRk
Has this source been mentioned as of yet?
Any Help?
« Last Edit: October 15, 2014, 10:51:25 PM by Jerry Germann »
Logged

Ric Gillespie

  • Executive Director
  • Administrator
  • *
  • Posts: 6105
  • "Do not try. Do or do not. There is no try" Yoda
Re: 2-2-V-1 - patch?
« Reply #748 on: October 15, 2014, 10:58:12 AM »

At the crux here I seem to have needed to correct the now-emerging labored assumption that we unanimously agreed 2-2-V-1 came from a factory setting: no, 'we' did not; we did agree it did not appear to be the work that produced the war time repairs we were able to study.  I respect Monty's belief, but suggest that his impression as given in that sentence is his own; it certainly was not and is not mine.  If I've somehow erred until now in what the commission believed I ascribed to, the record is now corrected.

Thank you for that Jeff.  As you'll recall, it was FAA Flight Standards District Manager Aris Scarla who, in Dayton, noted the precision of the rivet pitch and likened it to factory-quality work.   Aris was with us in Wichita. We now have a much better understanding of what was done to install the window and later the patch.  The rivet pitch on the longitudinal stiffeners is, indeed, precise work but not beyond the capabilities of a skilled mechanic. Aris is of the opinion that the artifact is the patch.
Logged

Ric Gillespie

  • Executive Director
  • Administrator
  • *
  • Posts: 6105
  • "Do not try. Do or do not. There is no try" Yoda
Re: 2-2-V-1 - patch?
« Reply #749 on: October 15, 2014, 11:09:38 AM »

As per the image/ images Jeff Glickman is studying...... is the shiny Miami patch photo the main/ sole image that is under study to see if it's characteristics match the artifact?

The print of the Miami Herald photo that we obtained years and years ago is, by far, the best image of the patch we've found.  All of the other images are digital scans.  Scanning alters the image. The Lae takeoff video is a digital dub of a copy of the original 16mm film.  The original film and the copy are apparently both lost.  It would be great if we could find prints from the original negatives of the two Darwin photos (the one on the ramp and the one in the hangar).
Logged
Pages: 1 ... 48 49 [50] 51 52 ... 85   Go Up
 

Copyright 2024 by TIGHAR, a non-profit foundation. No portion of the TIGHAR Website may be reproduced by xerographic, photographic, digital or any other means for any purpose. No portion of the TIGHAR Website may be stored in a retrieval system, copied, transmitted or transferred in any form or by any means, whether electronic, mechanical, digital, photographic, magnetic or otherwise, for any purpose without the express, written permission of TIGHAR. All rights reserved.

Contact us at: info@tighar.org • Phone: 610-467-1937 • Membership formwebmaster@tighar.org

Powered by MySQL SMF 2.0.18 | SMF © 2021, Simple Machines Powered by PHP