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Author Topic: 2-2-V-1 - patch?  (Read 1126777 times)

Ric Gillespie

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Re: 2-2-V-1 - patch?
« Reply #465 on: September 11, 2014, 08:35:03 AM »

I didn't realize any question remained as to the patch suddenly appearing in Miami. Perhaps crucially, the pictures of the open window could have been anywhere the craft may have been between the time of window mod and window patch installation.

No they couldn't.  There is photographic proof (see above) that the window was on the aircraft when it left Burbank.
The woman in the photo with AE and the still-windowed Electra is Nilla Putnam. There's no doubt about that unless Sally Chapman doesn't know who her mother is (I've known Sally for almost 20 years. She is TIGHAR #1126).  The photo was definitely taken in Miami, apparently on Saturday, May 29.
Let's stop re-flogging things we know and work on what we don't know.

Let's not waste time
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Jay Burkett

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Re: 2-2-V-1 - patch?
« Reply #466 on: September 11, 2014, 10:47:55 AM »

Is that "speed tape" (or the '30s equivalent) on a cracked window?  Sure looks like it!  I always assumed that it was something inside the aircraft, but, looking at the other windows and all of the recent activity tape on a broken window sure seems to fit with the current line of thinking.  I don't have a clue what type of tape was available back then.  I'm not sure when "speed tape" (aluminum foil tape) was introduced.  If "speed tape" was not yet around it could be something like duct tape.
Jay Burkett, N4RBY
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« Last Edit: September 11, 2014, 11:21:53 AM by Jay Burkett »
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Monty Fowler

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Re: 2-2-V-1 - patch?
« Reply #467 on: September 11, 2014, 10:50:29 AM »

Let's stop re-flogging things we know and work on what we don't know.

Let's not waste time

True enough. There are still some musty old records in Miami that will be gone through in short order to see if there are any buried nuggets.

LTM,
Monty Fowler, TIGHAR No. 2189ECSP
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Matt Revington

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Re: 2-2-V-1 - patch?
« Reply #468 on: September 11, 2014, 11:22:09 AM »

Jay I'm pretty sure thats the view through the open cabin door on the other side of the plane
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Greg Daspit

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Re: 2-2-V-1 - patch?
« Reply #469 on: September 11, 2014, 11:23:40 AM »

Is that "speed tape" (or the '30s equivalent) on a cracked window?  Sure looks like it!
Yep. Matt beat me to it. Looks like the lav door is open so you see the open cabin door. I think the small dark rectangle is the window in the cabin door
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« Last Edit: September 11, 2014, 12:50:15 PM by Greg Daspit »
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Jay Burkett

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Re: 2-2-V-1 - patch?
« Reply #470 on: September 11, 2014, 11:31:18 AM »

From the rear-quarter angle from which that photo was taken I'm not sure you could see the forward door jamb if the door was open.  Also, note that you cannot see inside of any of the other windows even on the aircraft foward of AE's Electra.  All of the windows are showing up as black.  This is even true for the cockpit windows.  Even if you could not see in the cabin windows you would think that you could see through the cockpit windows --- not with this exposure.
Jay Burkett, N4RBY
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« Last Edit: September 11, 2014, 11:33:14 AM by Jay Burkett »
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Ric Gillespie

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Re: 2-2-V-1 - patch?
« Reply #471 on: September 11, 2014, 12:30:35 PM »

I have to agree with Matt and Greg.  Note that in the other photo showing the truck, the cabin door is open.
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JNev

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Re: 2-2-V-1 - patch?
« Reply #472 on: September 11, 2014, 12:33:48 PM »

I didn't realize any question remained as to the patch suddenly appearing in Miami. Perhaps crucially, the pictures of the open window could have been anywhere the craft may have been between the time of window mod and window patch installation.

No they couldn't.  There is photographic proof (see above) that the window was on the aircraft when it left Burbank.
The woman in the photo with AE and the still-windowed Electra is Nilla Putnam. There's no doubt about that unless Sally Chapman doesn't know who her mother is (I've known Sally for almost 20 years. She is TIGHAR #1126).  The photo was definitely taken in Miami, apparently on Saturday, May 29.
Let's stop re-flogging things we know and work on what we don't know.

Let's not waste time

I'm well aware that the window (opening) was present from Burbank to Miami - never challenged that.

I'm not re-flogging anything that I know - but I fail to see the import of 'who's who' in the picture, other than it happens to be interesting - which is one reason I frequent this site.  I like to contribute what I can, but I have enough other production to make on any account so I surely don't need to waste time wasting other's time. 

She surely as hell looks a lot like Jackie Cochran to me, to be blunt, and Woody's got a sharp eye - so I can see why the side-bar - but she's not my mother, for sure so what do I know.  But if that kind of side bar is a fatal attraction, no more from me.

As to wasting time -

Why is there a question about whether the patch was effected in Miami or not?  I didn't question that nor did I see that implied in any of this, if that was part of your meaning.  I merely meant that the picture could have happened within that 'window' because of the presence of the 'window': it could have been in Burbank, if you didn't have other information.  Maybe I missed something on that until now - I didn't realize Sally Chapman had identified her mother in the photo as such until your last post.

But I surely don't want to waste TIGHAR's time, so consider it dropped.  If you want that to stick uniformly, I suggest that there are plenty of side-discussions running around this place to pick on...
- Jeff Neville

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Jay Burkett

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Re: 2-2-V-1 - patch?
« Reply #473 on: September 11, 2014, 12:46:05 PM »

I just pent some quality time with the plan views.  The two photos to have been taken at about the same time (shadows are about the same and there is the stuff on the ground and the gal in the white dress, but, the truck is gone).  The mx guys are apparently still working int he cockpit and blocking the light coming through the open hatch.  The aircraft to the forward-left of "our" Electra are probably has interior covers or curtains over the windows.  The lav door would have to be "open".  The inside surfce of the open door in the prior picture is completely illuminated, hence, bright.   OK ... I give.

Sorry for the goose chase!

I'll add this to the list of failed thought experiments I've attempted since I began following this project ...
Jay Burkett, N4RBY
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Ric Gillespie

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Re: 2-2-V-1 - patch?
« Reply #474 on: September 11, 2014, 01:26:27 PM »

I fail to see the import of 'who's who' in the picture

It's important because it helps pin down the date that the patch was installed.  Nilla and David visited shortly before departure.  Earhart is dressed in the same outfit when the compass was swung on May 29.  Earhart arrived in Miami on May 23 but it wasn't until sometime on either Sunday, May 30 or Monday, May 31 (Memorial Day) that the work was done.  Why?  Once the decision was made to remove the window and repair the hole someone had to design the repair, secure the materials, and perform the repair.  The lack of any mention of this work in the press or other literature about AE's time in Miami is strange. 

Here's a question for you Jeff.  Let's say you're Bo McKneeley, Earhart's mechanic (the resemblance is uncanny). For whatever reason, after you arrive in Miami, you and AE agree that the window has to go.  How long does it take you from the time that decision is made until the airplane is ready to go with the repair completed?

She surely as hell looks a lot like Jackie Cochran to me

Really? 

Why is there a question about whether the patch was effected in Miami or not?

It's vital.  If the repair was effected in Miami it explains why there is no mention of it in the Lockheed repair orders and why there is no paint on the interior surface. 
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JNev

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Re: 2-2-V-1 - patch?
« Reply #475 on: September 11, 2014, 04:22:02 PM »

I fail to see the import of 'who's who' in the picture

It's important because it helps pin down the date that the patch was installed.  Nilla and David visited shortly before departure.  Earhart is dressed in the same outfit when the compass was swung on May 29.  Earhart arrived in Miami on May 23 but it wasn't until sometime on either Sunday, May 30 or Monday, May 31 (Memorial Day) that the work was done.  Why?  Once the decision was made to remove the window and repair the hole someone had to design the repair, secure the materials, and perform the repair.  The lack of any mention of this work in the press or other literature about AE's time in Miami is strange. 

Here's a question for you Jeff.  Let's say you're Bo McKneeley, Earhart's mechanic (the resemblance is uncanny). For whatever reason, after you arrive in Miami, you and AE agree that the window has to go.  How long does it take you from the time that decision is made until the airplane is ready to go with the repair completed?

I could (and have done similar) effect such a 'covering' overnight, literally, using materials that most airports have about.  The patch appears to be a simple 'cover' in 'scab' fashion - it was not fitted to be flush, but laid over the aperture by overlapping the edges to pick up the fasteners already existing in the window frame (some of which were original airframe fasteners).

The 'design' scheme would be simple: follow the original structure where possible, but that appears to be simplified in this case because the existing window frame, not withstanding the arguments about 'weakness' which remain unproven to me, is at least arguably a basis for continued strength.  Hence the 'simple cover' I've described (which is what 2-2-V-1 has always looked like to me, since Symposium 2012).  Once the cover is in place, the need for stiffening would be apparent (and was probably anticipated) - it would likely have more to do with avoiding oil-canning in flight than lending strength, per se, in my view.  In any case, some angle may have been on hand, or could have been bent from strips cut from the same material as the cover; in all likelihood there was a shear and brake in the area that someone was happy enough to help with, that's been the case for me even in the stix on occasion (I've made a number of temporary repairs to ferry aircraft out of some oddball places over the years). 

The one tricky piece would be the vertical stiffener because in the field, fabricating on the bench, you'd be working with a straight "L" angle that needs to rest in contour with the skin curve (fore and aft members not so noticeable; vertical more so).  That might be overcome with a shrinker on the field, easily enough.  It may also help explain why it was never fully fastened - was that detail farmed out only to arrive too late for that finishing touch?  Just a thought (caution, severe conjecture).

The engineering for such a 'patch' (I actually prefer 'cover') is 'canned' - right out of the guidance of the day (the forerunner of today's AC 43.13), there would have been no need of engineering oversight.  The formalities of preparing and submitting a major alteration form was likely overlooked in the circumstance (sorry Aris, no foul... I didn't say I'd do it that way).  I've encountered plenty of such repairs and alterations that were obviously regarded as 'minor' anyway, judging by the common dirth of attending records - mechanics by and large have tended to be more crafty with tools than paperwork, especially when trying to get someone like Earhart on her way.

Six to eight hours of effort to fabricate and install that patch, including the fore-aft stiffeners and now-known vertical member.  The only help I'd need (other than local scrounging for materials and tools) would be someone to buck the rivets.  Judging by the hob-nailed surviving rivet, that might have been someone like Fred... I'd give a lot to see what that finished work really looked like up close.

But we know the rivet lines were laid out with precision - Aris ticked them off with the calipers in Dayton, so some skill went into this thing.  That does not add to my time estimate - good craftsmanship is assumed.

She surely as hell looks a lot like Jackie Cochran to me

Really? 

Yes, really - how old was Jackie in the photo you added?  But if Sally Chapman nailed her mother in that picture, it was good of you to share that with us; I'd say she'd know.  Sally herself confounded things a bit by the "5 months pregnant" remark (no foul, of course) - that's typically an expectantly (pun not  ::)) 'showing' thing.  If it was Jackie Cochran, it would have zero effect on when / where the patch was installed because the salient fact is the cover isn't there yet - same difference, yes?  It was merely a point of interest - don't get wrapped around the axle...

Why is there a question about whether the patch was effected in Miami or not?

It's vital.  If the repair was effected in Miami it explains why there is no mention of it in the Lockheed repair orders and why there is no paint on the interior surface.

I think you're missing my point, which was - there is NO question that I can see that the patch was installed anywhere other than Miami.  I fail to see why that was ever in question.  If it WAS Cochran in the picture, and the picture WAS made in Burbank - the patch is NOT there... same as Miami, until the very last.  Once again, I am vexed that I cannot lay hands on what I read about that patch, but I do recall it had more to do with securing the plane - cutting off curiosity seekers, than anything about structural concerns (which I do not recall reading).  If I can ever find that, I'll lay it on here.

Sorry if I'm missing something in this, but I don't understand the touchiness.  "The patch was most clearly installed in MiamI" to me - always has been clear since I first became aware of it at the Symposium in D.C. in June 2012, which is where I was first struck by how much 2-2-V-1 looked like something that might have been so-purposed.  I didn't see where any of this exchange created any doubt about that.
- Jeff Neville

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« Last Edit: September 11, 2014, 04:53:15 PM by Jeffrey Neville »
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Mark Pearce

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Re: 2-2-V-1 - patch?
« Reply #476 on: September 11, 2014, 06:49:10 PM »

If the patch was about 25 3/8" long [the distance between stations 293.625 and 320, less one inch,] and 2-2-V-1 is about 24 3/8" long, the scaling in the overlay photo needs to be adjusted. 





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Ingo Prangenberg

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Re: 2-2-V-1 - patch?
« Reply #477 on: September 12, 2014, 06:49:10 AM »

1. Is the somewhat straight, regular edge of the patch (at top of previous photo) supposed to be an original cut made by the patch fabricator?

2. Since the patch was found at south-west corner of the island after storm action (as read in archives), is it assumed that island inhabitants ever laid their hands on it or did it get "churned up from below the reef"?
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JNev

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Re: 2-2-V-1 - patch?
« Reply #478 on: September 12, 2014, 09:35:53 AM »

I too am very anxious to see a clearly defined overlay. 

I have been, as anyone who reads here regularly probably knows, and remain very enthusiastic about the potential for 2-2-V-1 as 'the patch', but realize we must have a clearly smoking-hot line-up to be convincing. 

I am looking forward to seeing this when such a report can be developed with some sort of well-defined visual model attached.

If the patch was about 25 3/8" long [the distance between stations 293.625 and 320, less one inch,] and 2-2-V-1 is about 24 3/8" long, the scaling in the overlay photo needs to be adjusted. 





- Jeff Neville

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Tim Collins

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Re: 2-2-V-1 - patch?
« Reply #479 on: September 12, 2014, 09:53:31 AM »

Anybody have the wherewithal and resources to do a fuselage mock up? Just a small section of course.  Not sure what use it could be, but might prove informative in working out scenarios as to how the window hole was patched.
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