2-2-V-1 - patch?

[Tim Collins]

How close are we to getting a report of 2-2-V-1?

[Ric Gillespie]

How close are we to getting a report of 2-2-V-1?

I assume you mean a report from Jeff Glickman.  We decided that it would be best for Jeff to write a single report after all the analysis is complete rather than for him to write a series of interim reports.  For one thing, something he discovers later could change something that seems apparent now.  It's going to take weeks to process and analyze the hyperspectral imaging data we collected last week so we won't have a final report from Jeff until sometime this fall.  Meanwhile, I'll continue to write updates on what we've learned (or think we've learned) so far.  The Forum's role in all this is important. Jeff Glickman is a dynamite forensic imaging specialist but he's not an aircraft structures expert. The observations, opinions, and suggestions made here are valuable in helping to direct his research and analysis.

[Greg Daspit]

Regarding lack of rivets in the vertical stiffener.
If the vertical member suggested by the deformation in 2-2-V-1 is only 3/8" wide, is that wide enough to rivet to?
If made of metal, it is possible that part of that 3/8" width included another leg( "L" shaped) or two legs ("U" shaped) and those legs took up some of the width which would not leave much for the rivet seat. Also the hole for the rivet would not leave much area of remaining metal around the hole.

The vertical stiffeners in other Electras appear to be notched to allow the stringers to be continuous with the two legs of the stringer "U" shape set into it.
Assuming they re-installed a vertical stiffener Station 307, and it was only 3/8" wide, and was notched to allow the stringers to continue,  it could be that the vertical stiffener was solid material, maybe even plywood(easy to shape a curve and possibly locally available) and therefore could not take rivets. Maybe part of its purpose was to help "form" the curve in the middle of the opening until the assembly was riveted elsewhere and since the original circumferential structures look like complex shapes, plywood may have been an option they chose as a substitute?

[Ric Gillespie]

Regarding lack of rivets in the vertical stiffener.
If the vertical member suggested by the deformation in 2-2-V-1 is only 3/8" wide, is that wide enough to rivet to?

Apparently yes.  See attached photos.

[Greg Daspit]

Regarding lack of rivets in the vertical stiffener.
If the vertical member suggested by the deformation in 2-2-V-1 is only 3/8" wide, is that wide enough to rivet to?

Apparently yes.  See attached photos.

Thanks.  I should have looked at the similar ones in closer view to see the size better. They do look about 3/8" wide using the 3/4" horizontal stringers as a rough scale.  Another chill just went down my back looking at that! The narrow width of the smaller intermittent vertical members in a standard Electra seems like another fit to 2-2-V-1.

[Ric Gillespie]

Another chill just went down my back looking at that! The narrow width of the smaller intermittent vertical members in a standard Electra seems like another fit to 2-2-V-1.

Yep.  At some point you stop being surprised when some new piece of information fits.  You cross what I call the "threshold of coincidence."  All the data are not yet in but you reach a point where there are so many matches that it more difficult to believe that the hypothesis is NOT correct than it is to accept that it IS correct. 

[pilotart]

It might not have even taken a 'Hard Landing' to cause them problems with that window.

I had two 400 Series Cessna's, first was bought new (1980) and a subsequent (1986) SB called for reinforcing with retainer ring doublers all around the cabin windows on the inside, lots of rivets (all of them) to drill out and reset. 

Second 400 was the Conquest which I found the best one of that 'out-of-production' aircraft in a 1985 model in 1991.  Pre-Purchase inspection revealed that this SB had never been performed.  It took a prism to see them, but three windows were found to have cracks.

Later, the same Prism Inspection revealed similar cracks necessitating replacement of the co-pilot's windshield.  All of these operations took many, many "AOG" days (& $$$) to accomplish, so I can see the logic in their replacing that window with 2-2-V-1 since under their rules, it would be allowed and save them a lot of time and money.

[Jerry Germann]

* stiched-inside.jpg

     Was wondering about the size of the vertical stringer in the location ( where 2-2-V-1 is purported to fit) ...looking at the images , it appears forward of the cabin door, and just forward of the navigator's window,... the vertical stringers are wider down to the bottom of the window level, then change to the narrow bands from there to the floor, ....I am unable to see whether that pattern continues aft of the cabin door, ( they appear to be the narrow width from top to bottom however; do you have any close up views of those aft stations)?

[Ric Gillespie]

     Was wondering about the size of the vertical stringer in the location ( where 2-2-V-1 is purported to fit) ...looking at the images , it appears forward of the cabin door, and just forward of the navigator's window,... the vertical stringers are wider down to the bottom of the window level, then change to the narrow bands from there to the floor,

The airplane is c/n 1130, an Electra that was being rebuilt as a replica of NR16020.  They removed the cabin windows and skinned over the holes.  The wider vertical stiffeners are
where the windows once were.  (That project got cancelled and the airplane is now in the Navy's collection.)

....I am unable to see whether that pattern continues aft of the cabin door, ( they appear to be the narrow width from top to bottom however; do you have any close up views of those aft stations)?

Unfortunately no, but I agree that the stiffeners back there are narrow top to bottom.

[Ric Gillespie]

New Research Bulletin up.  Check out A Smoking Gun?

[Tim Gard]

New Research Bulletin up.  Check out A Smoking Gun?

Great news Ric.

[Ingo Prangenberg]

I like the new bulletin titled "A Smoking Gun?"
I just want to ask for clarification of two items if possible.

First question applies to the following statement: "So far, Jeff Glickman has been able to confirm that four of the five lines of rivet holes on the artifact match rivet lines that are detectable on the patch. The line of rivets that falls within the dark area on the patch may or may not be possible to find simply due to the lack of contrast."

I thought there were no clear images of the rivet pattern in the vintage photos, seeing the patch area on the photos is too grainy. What are the rivet patterns on the artifact being compared to?

Second questions applies to that fantastic indentation at station 307. What would have created that indentation? Is high altitude a factor? Possibly a hard landing? Continuous wave action beating parallel to the fuselage?

[Ingo Prangenberg]

I'm still fascinated by the two very different edges on this skin. The jagged triangular tears has always given me the impression of having been created by human hand.
What is interesting on the jagged edge is that the triangular tears on the right "peak" to the left, while the triangular tears on the left "peak" to the right.
Almost appears as if this was removed from the plane with a hard object wedged under the each rivet space and pried towards the center-middle of the patch, first popping one side loose and then the other. Sure seams easier to wrestle an aluminum patch off of the side of a plane than dig into a continuous seam. Has the jagged edge been examined on the backside for marks that may indicate a tool (wood or metal) was wedged under the lip to lever and break each rivet individually in order to remove this part from the fuselage.

[C.W. Herndon]

I have just finished reading the TIGHAR Bulletin, Smoking Gun. In the first picture below, TIGHAR has identified the second woman in the photo as Nilla Putnam, the daughter-in-law of George Palmer Putman. The second photo below, taken from this story calls the second woman an unidentified friend of Amelia.

When TIGHAR first used this photo, several weeks ago, I became curious as to the identity of the second woman. I found the last two photos in this article.

I may be totally wrong, but IMHO, the second woman in this photo is either Amelia's friend, Jacqueline (Jackie) Cochran, or her twin.

For what it's worth ::)

[Ric Gillespie]

I'm still fascinated by the two very different edges on this skin.

What is really fascinating is that each of the four edges of the skin exhibits a different kind of failure. We'll need to recruit a forensic metallurgist with experience in aircraft crash investigation to look at these edges and give us an opinion about what kind of tool or force could have created the damage we see.