Advanced search  
Pages: 1 ... 20 21 [22] 23 24 ... 85   Go Down

Author Topic: 2-2-V-1 - patch?  (Read 1126783 times)

Nathan Leaf

  • T1
  • *
  • Posts: 41
  • #4538R
Re: 2-2-V-1 - patch?
« Reply #315 on: July 17, 2014, 07:59:52 AM »

Very much tend to agree with you, Jeff.

Airframes are designed to withstand G-loadings in flight that far exceed the shearing action of surf over a coral reef.  Even if a large, storm-generated wave were to "catch" the fuselage and jam a wingtip in to the coral, flipping and slamming the aircraft on to the coral, I doubt the force would exceed that of a 70-knot ditching attempt, which is basically setting down on concrete at that speed. 

I can see panels of skin from the belly being mangled, torn and/or "ripped" where the aircraft rests on the coral, but I struggle to buy in to the "broken up and ground to bits" hypothesis.

I can only recall one famous WW2 story of a partially submerged aircraft abandoned on a coral reef after a successful reef landing, and interestingly, there was a discovery related to this whole affair just 10 days ago....

http://www.warhistoryonline.com/war-articles/pby-engines-discovered-remote-south-pacific-reef-locate-wwii-ditching.html
TIGHAR No. 4538R
 
Logged

Bill Mangus

  • TIGHAR member
  • *
  • Posts: 420
Re: 2-2-V-1 - patch?
« Reply #316 on: July 17, 2014, 08:29:38 AM »

These are two links to the Croyden ST-18 story mentioned further up this post.  That a/c eventually broke up on the reef leaving only the frame behind.

http://tighar.org/wiki/Landing_on_a_Reef:_A_Case_Study
http://tighar.org/Projects/Earhart/Archives/Research/Bulletins/64_ReefLanding/64_ReefLanding.htm

In the Aerial Tour video Ric mentions the large coral block "the size of bulldozers" ripped from the reef face at the entrance to Tatiman Passage.  (I think it was "bulldozers".  Anyway, they're really big.)  If breaking waves can do that they should have little trouble taking apart an airplane.  I think that qualifies as a 'high energy impact'.



Logged

Jeff Victor Hayden

  • T5
  • *****
  • Posts: 1387
Re: 2-2-V-1 - patch?
« Reply #317 on: July 17, 2014, 11:14:06 AM »

Unfortunately the reef at Gardner Island did, and still has, something which has the means of pinning an aircraft down just next to the surf line. It's a natural feature, I'll post an image of it later Jeff.
This must be the place
 
Logged

Jay Burkett

  • T2
  • **
  • Posts: 59
Re: 2-2-V-1 - patch?
« Reply #318 on: July 17, 2014, 11:33:53 AM »

Jeff, your thoughts on the non-likelihood of a surf break-up mirror mine exactly!  There are too many examples of ditched aircraft to use for comparison.  Ditching is a violent event --- much more violent than sitting in the surf.  When these aircraft are discovered they are usually in one piece.  I’m not sure most folks know how tough aluminum monocoque really is!  Over the years I have tried to “liberate” samples from aircraft being scrapped.  On a few cases I was successful.  It is a LOT harder than you might think.  If you don’t believe me give it a try yourself if you get the opportunity.  Because of this I believe that the aircraft will be found essentially whole.
Jay Burkett, N4RBY
Aerospace Engineer
Fairhope AL
 
Logged

Greg Daspit

  • TIGHAR member
  • *
  • Posts: 788
Re: 2-2-V-1 - patch?
« Reply #319 on: July 17, 2014, 12:20:36 PM »

I can see the plane being sturdy enough to absorb wave action by moving with the waves. However, Emily describing wreckage in the same place as the Bevignton Object suggests the plane, or parts of the plane, did not move for years.  The location of the Bevington object and where Emily saw plane wreckage is near where the waves break. Based on that, it seems the parts there years later might be something very sturdy, like an engine,(Emily described something like rust, not shiny) possibly with parts of the nacelle including the landing gear. I don’t see the landing gear staying on the reef long by itself due the surface area of the tire unless it was hung up, secured or somehow connected to a bigger piece.

 The Glickman Debris Field also suggests some break up. However, if the “debris field” is from the plane, that debris could be from larger pieces, or most of the plane, tumbling down the underwater terrain after it sank, because the “debris” appears to be somewhat localized. The debris pieces are so close together, they could be from a large piece that disintegrated in place, underwater,  with pieces migrating downhill in a crevice after corroding.
Taking the Bevington object, Emily’s story, the Debris Field and the Sonar Anomaly all together, I think the plane broke into big pieces on the reef by getting blown offshore by the wind and then pushed back into the reef edge by the current and waves a few times. Enough back and forth to break it and/or open enough holes to allow most of it or big pieces to sink just south of where it initially went over. The heavier more sturdy pieces staying in the dynamic reef edge area long enough for Emily and her father to see them at neap tide. 

I don’t think  a person made the first fracture in 2-2-V-1 in an attempt to remove it. I also have some difficulty seeing someone popping the bulk of the rivet heads off and separating the skin from the stringers without deforming the skin more. However, I can see the fracture from fatigue being made by someone and some of the rivets or stringers being removed due to the tool marks. 
2-2-V-1 by itself would not float. Although possible, getting 2-2-V-1 to the point near the landing channel by currents alone pushing it along the reef does not seem likely to me by looking at the debris pattern from the NC. The fatigue fracture, tool marks and its found location, suggest to me that 2-2-V-1 was moved closer to the channel by someone and later abandoned. I don’t see it as being used for other purposes for long due to the awkwardness of the fractures
3971R
 
« Last Edit: July 17, 2014, 12:25:47 PM by Greg Daspit »
Logged

Jeff Victor Hayden

  • T5
  • *****
  • Posts: 1387
Re: 2-2-V-1 - patch?
« Reply #320 on: July 17, 2014, 02:15:23 PM »

"Rising tides and surf wash the aircraft into one of the “spur and groove” features where it is swept into shallow water in the surf zone."

http://tighar.org/Projects/Earhart/Archives/Research/Bulletins/56_WhereIsElectra/56_where2.htm


Being wedged into one of the grooves pins the plane down as with the Bevington object further up the reef earlier in the break up. The general shape of a plane lends itself to having protuberances that can easily get caught in grooves e.g. landing gear, wings, engines, tailplane, props etc... even the fuselage itself.

Fom the Croydon ST-18 reef landing...

"At high tide on that day the reef was covered to a depth of 3 ft. A week later this would have increased to 14 ft., which meant that the aircraft would then be covered, and the heavy ocean swell would soon break it up. By the time we were able to get information through to the outside world it was therefore too late, and the reef too inaccessible for any salvage work to be done."

High tides at Gardner never approach 14 feet but heavy ocean swells are common.




This must be the place
 
« Last Edit: July 17, 2014, 04:03:30 PM by Jeff Victor Hayden »
Logged

pilotart

  • T3
  • ***
  • Posts: 139
Re: 2-2-V-1 - patch?
« Reply #321 on: July 18, 2014, 11:30:07 AM »

These are two links to the Croyden ST-18 story mentioned further up this post.  That a/c eventually broke up on the reef leaving only the frame behind.

http://tighar.org/wiki/Landing_on_a_Reef:_A_Case_Study
http://tighar.org/Projects/Earhart/Archives/Research/Bulletins/64_ReefLanding/64_ReefLanding.htm

Here's a link to a 3 page Forum Thread titled "A Reef in Time" (Croydon's):

https://tighar.org/smf/index.php/topic,942.0.html

Here's another vintage Airliner Which successfully landed on a Reef.
(Success meaning People and Cargo were saved; from page 3.)

...From the Croydon ST-18 reef landing...

"At high tide on that day the reef was covered to a depth of 3 ft. A week later this would have increased to 14 ft., which meant that the aircraft would then be covered, and the heavy ocean swell would soon break it up. By the time we were able to get information through to the outside world it was therefore too late, and the reef too inaccessible for any salvage work to be done."

High tides at Gardner never approach 14 feet but heavy ocean swells are common.
The most promising aspect of Croydon (as to survival of identifiable remains) is the report from 59 years later seeing  “The frame of the plane is still there to this day” [1995] remaining on a reef that is under a lot more Ocean Stress than Amelia's likely choice.
Art Johnson
 
Logged

Matt Revington

  • TIGHAR member
  • *
  • Posts: 396
  • member #4155
Re: 2-2-V-1 - patch?
« Reply #322 on: July 18, 2014, 11:56:12 AM »

From the link Nathan posted above:
http://www.warhistoryonline.com/war-articles/pby-engines-discovered-remote-south-pacific-reef-locate-wwii-ditching.html

"FDMC hopes to go back and look for remnants for the Lana T (C-47). Ewan Stevenson cautioned Seth that with other shallow-water crashes the waves and coral, especially during typhoons, have ripped the skin of even larger aircraft into pieces smaller than 2 inches across, most of which are grown over with coral and hard to find, and the paint is dissolved. But at least the Lana T’s engines, of the same model as the PBY, might be found."

Mr Stephenson has considerable experience in the pacific  with wrecks
http://www.pacificwrecks.com/people/authors/stevenson/index.html

It seems how well the skin of aircraft survives depends on the environment it ends up in and the type of weather it encounters.
Logged

JNev

  • T5
  • *****
  • Posts: 778
  • It's a GOOD thing to be in the cornfield...
Re: 2-2-V-1 - patch?
« Reply #323 on: July 18, 2014, 12:01:29 PM »

These are two links to the Croyden ST-18 story mentioned further up this post.  That a/c eventually broke up on the reef leaving only the frame behind.

http://tighar.org/wiki/Landing_on_a_Reef:_A_Case_Study
http://tighar.org/Projects/Earhart/Archives/Research/Bulletins/64_ReefLanding/64_ReefLanding.htm

In the Aerial Tour video Ric mentions the large coral block "the size of bulldozers" ripped from the reef face at the entrance to Tatiman Passage.  (I think it was "bulldozers".  Anyway, they're really big.)  If breaking waves can do that they should have little trouble taking apart an airplane.  I think that qualifies as a 'high energy impact'.

"The frame of the plane is there to this day" tells me nothing of what is really there (or was there when this report was made) - was that a 'nearly complete' airframe?  They described measuring a wingspan - 8 "depa" (fathoms) long - about 48 feet, if I recall what a fathom is; that implies a more or less still-intact airplane.

I think you missed my point, Bill - I well realize the force of the surf; what has been overlooked is the inherent strength of an airframe in a fluid environment when there is a lack of mechanical opposing force, i.e. airframe relatively free to react and move 'away' from the onslaught of hydraulic force.  My belief is that there may be more tendency to 'surf' than to 'break up' due to surf forces.

I would like to know more about the Croyden 'remains' but find that story a bit 'wanting to please' the listener, given aboriginal tendencies about such retellings as I've read them to be.

Whole point here really being, all this speculation is fun, but does nothing to advance whether 2-2-V-1 is or is not from NR16020, and does not even approach serious science, in my view.  Sorry if I seem impatient, but it all gets to be a bit much to wade through after while.
- Jeff Neville

Former Member 3074R
 
Logged

Jeff Victor Hayden

  • T5
  • *****
  • Posts: 1387
Re: 2-2-V-1 - patch?
« Reply #324 on: July 18, 2014, 01:18:52 PM »

"Whole point here really being, all this speculation is fun, but does nothing to advance whether 2-2-V-1 is or is not from NR16020, and does not even approach serious science, in my view.  Sorry if I seem impatient, but it all gets to be a bit much to wade through after while."

I thought we were looking into possible ways in which 2-2-V-1 became separated from the rest of the airplane? Normally you start with a blank sheet of paper or blackboard and then begin to put something on it. You can add or remove as ideas are discussed/debated and theories are tested.
This must be the place
 
Logged

Ric Gillespie

  • Executive Director
  • Administrator
  • *
  • Posts: 6105
  • "Do not try. Do or do not. There is no try" Yoda
Re: 2-2-V-1 - patch?
« Reply #325 on: July 18, 2014, 01:29:09 PM »

This just in from Jeff Glickman:

"I should have something for you on 2-2-V-1 in 5 to 7 days."
Logged

Monty Fowler

  • T5
  • *****
  • Posts: 1078
  • "The real answer is always the right answer."
Re: 2-2-V-1 - patch?
« Reply #326 on: July 18, 2014, 02:53:08 PM »

This just in from Jeff Glickman:

"I should have something for you on 2-2-V-1 in 5 to 7 days."

Sweet. That will just about coincide with some other ongoing efforts.

LTM, who thinks dusty files are pretty cool,
Monty Fowler, TIGHAR No. 2189 ECSP
Ex-TIGHAR member No. 2189 E C R SP, 1998-2016
 
Logged

richie conroy

  • T5
  • *****
  • Posts: 1412
Re: 2-2-V-1 - patch?
« Reply #327 on: July 18, 2014, 07:02:02 PM »

Monty

5 Star rating, 555 posts, Subject 2-2-v-1 - patch,  2-2-1 = 5   :o

Things we notice while wondering what else is going on  :) :)
We are an echo of the past


Member# 416
 
Logged

Monty Fowler

  • T5
  • *****
  • Posts: 1078
  • "The real answer is always the right answer."
Re: 2-2-V-1 - patch?
« Reply #328 on: July 18, 2014, 07:06:16 PM »

That's what I like about you, Richie ... you notice, well, stuff. Which is one reason I hope the Conroy Anomaly pans out.

This probably means something deeply profound and/or disturbing. Tonight, I opt for profound.

LTM,
Monty Fowler, TIGHAR No. 2189 ECSP
Ex-TIGHAR member No. 2189 E C R SP, 1998-2016
 
Logged

richie conroy

  • T5
  • *****
  • Posts: 1412
Re: 2-2-V-1 - patch?
« Reply #329 on: July 18, 2014, 07:18:53 PM »

Pans Snap  :o that anomaly could be anything even a mountain thing

 ;D ;D
We are an echo of the past


Member# 416
 
Logged
Pages: 1 ... 20 21 [22] 23 24 ... 85   Go Up
 

Copyright 2024 by TIGHAR, a non-profit foundation. No portion of the TIGHAR Website may be reproduced by xerographic, photographic, digital or any other means for any purpose. No portion of the TIGHAR Website may be stored in a retrieval system, copied, transmitted or transferred in any form or by any means, whether electronic, mechanical, digital, photographic, magnetic or otherwise, for any purpose without the express, written permission of TIGHAR. All rights reserved.

Contact us at: info@tighar.org • Phone: 610-467-1937 • Membership formwebmaster@tighar.org

Powered by MySQL SMF 2.0.18 | SMF © 2021, Simple Machines Powered by PHP