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Author Topic: The Question of 2-2-V-1  (Read 1093081 times)

Matt Revington

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Re: The Question of 2-2-V-1
« Reply #120 on: February 14, 2014, 11:26:10 AM »

Was there any history of American aluminum/rivets being used in British aircraft, some RAF planes were produced in Canada during the war.
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Ric Gillespie

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Re: The Question of 2-2-V-1
« Reply #121 on: February 14, 2014, 11:28:04 AM »

Was there any history of American aluminum/rivets being used in British aircraft, some RAF planes were produced in Canada during the war.

I don't know.  What British aircraft were serving in the Pacific anywhere near Gardner Island?
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Dan Swift

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Re: The Question of 2-2-V-1
« Reply #122 on: February 14, 2014, 01:47:31 PM »

Almost EVERY "was there's" and "what if's" are so easily 'shot down'. 
So frustrating is 2+2+2+2=8.  But there has to be more. 
I know it's driving you crazy because it is me and I don't live it everyday. 
And of course that is probably a much shorter 'trip' for me to drive than you. 
TIGHAR Member #4154
 
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Ric Gillespie

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Re: The Question of 2-2-V-1
« Reply #123 on: February 14, 2014, 02:16:04 PM »

Almost EVERY "was there's" and "what if's" are so easily 'shot down'. 
So frustrating is 2+2+2+2=8.  But there has to be more. 
I know it's driving you crazy because it is me and I don't live it everyday. 
And of course that is probably a much shorter 'trip' for me to drive than you.

I'm not complaining.  This is a really exciting development and it just keeps getting better.
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Sheryl McCallister

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Re: The Question of 2-2-V-1
« Reply #124 on: February 14, 2014, 02:45:18 PM »

I can only imagine how exciting it is for you to be working out these firm details, even now--it's heart pounding for this complete and total observer who thought that piece of plexi you found during the early Niku III days was more than enough of a smoking gun to call Niku way more than just a hypothesis.

But then, almost unlimited patience is why y'all are the the pros and I'm just an interested observer.  ;)
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Jeff Victor Hayden

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Re: The Question of 2-2-V-1
« Reply #125 on: February 14, 2014, 06:06:40 PM »

Was there any history of American aluminum/rivets being used in British aircraft, some RAF planes were produced in Canada during the war.

I don't know.  What British aircraft were serving in the Pacific anywhere near Gardner Island?


The Empire Air Mail Programme

"1938 saw the schedules of the Empire routes being accelerated, and air mail figures for the first quarter gave an idea of how well the Empire Air Mail Programme was working. In three months over 100 tons of mail had been flown on the Africa route and the same volume on the India route. This service was given a great amount of praise from the United States where only 2 tons of air mail was carried per week in 1937.

On the 28th July Australia, New Zealand, Tasmania, Papua, Fiji, Norfolk Island, Lord Howe Island, Nauru, The Mandated Territory of Western Samoa and the Territories under the Jurisdiction of the High Commissioner for the Western Pacific were brought into the Programme."

The first mail left Southampton in Imperial Airways C Class flying boat G-AEUA Calypso.

None were lost so no chance of 2-2-V-1 being related




This must be the place
 
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Jeff Victor Hayden

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Re: The Question of 2-2-V-1
« Reply #126 on: February 14, 2014, 10:24:14 PM »

The process of elimination being undertaken here is pointing more and more towards artefact 2-2-V-1 once being a part of NR 16020, I'm impressed.
Here's another point to consider which may or may not add to the process. Yes, NR 16020 needed considerable repairs after the Luke Field incident.
Think about the Luke field crash, the eye-witness statements and the likeliest location for artefact 2-2-V-1 repair on the Electra and maybe that would give some clue as to why that particular area of the fuselage needed repairing.

http://tighar.org/Projects/Earhart/Archives/Documents/Luke_Field_Crash_Report/LukeFieldReport.htm

This must be the place
 
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Ric Gillespie

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Re: The Question of 2-2-V-1
« Reply #127 on: February 15, 2014, 08:00:07 AM »

Think about the Luke field crash, the eye-witness statements and the likeliest location for artefact 2-2-V-1 repair on the Electra and maybe that would give some clue as to why that particular area of the fuselage needed repairing.

It's not rocket science. As the aircraft ground looped to the left, the right main gear collapsed inward, slamming the right wing onto the pavement. (The entire right wing outboard of the engine had to be replaced as did all of the belly skins on the right side from the main beam back to the lavatory.)  The aircraft spun around 180° to the left and the left main gear collapsed outward.  As the aircraft slid backward, the collapsed right main separated entirely from the airframe. In the attached photo, note that the plane is resting on (and the sliding was done on) the right-hand side of the belly.
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Ric Gillespie

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Re: The Question of 2-2-V-1
« Reply #128 on: February 15, 2014, 10:14:03 AM »

This is interesting.  Artifact 2-8-I-1a is a section of stringer from Lockheed c/n 1024 (NC14935), a Northwest Airlines Model 10A that hit a mountain in Idaho on December 18, 1936.  The artifact was collected for research purposes by a TIGHAR team that visited the wreck site in July 2004.  (The same site was the subject of last year's TIGHAR Field School.)

Due to the jumbled nature of the debris field and extensive subsequent salvage activity, it's not possible to say from exactly what part of the wreck the stringer section came from.  What IS apparent is that the stringer section is just like the stringers in the New England Air Museum Electra c/n 1052 and the rivet holes match the size and pitch of the rivet holes in 2-2-V-1.  The NTSB said the length of the surviving rivet on 2-2-V-1 indicated attachment to an underlying structure about .06 inch thick. The section of stringer from the Idaho wreck is .06 inch thick.

Note that whereas the restored c/n 1052 has a coating of yellow-green zinc chromate corrosion inhibitor (which came into use circa 1939), the stringer section from the Idaho wreck has remnants of the original blue corrosion inhibitor used by Lockheed on Electras.

What's the significance of this match?  Not earth-shaking, but it is a part from a known Lockheed 10 that matches up with the artifact. There may be stringers from other aircraft types that would match up just as well, but we haven't found any yet.
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John Ousterhout

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Re: The Question of 2-2-V-1
« Reply #129 on: February 15, 2014, 10:20:15 AM »

Any pieces of skin and/or rivets collected from the Idaho crash site too?
Cheers,
JohnO
 
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Monty Fowler

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Re: The Question of 2-2-V-1
« Reply #130 on: February 15, 2014, 10:21:41 AM »

Wow ... ANOTHER one of those "picture is worth a thousand words" moments ... the pile of evidence is getting a start on looking impressive.

LTM, who tries not to press his impressions,
Monty Fowler, TIGHAR No. 2189 CER
Ex-TIGHAR member No. 2189 E C R SP, 1998-2016
 
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Monty Fowler

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Re: The Question of 2-2-V-1
« Reply #131 on: February 15, 2014, 10:29:53 AM »

Another thing about those photos - It's one of those odd funny historical things that Lockheed used a blue-tinted corrosion inhibitor on the inside aircraft parts in the 1930s and pre-war; Japan used something that looked almost exactly like that on its pre-war and early-war military aircraft. It was called, I believe, aotake - which would usually have a metallic bluish tint but occasionally greenish, depending on the manufacturer.

LTM, who likes to build itty bitty planes,
Monty Fowler, TIGHAR No. 2189 CER
Ex-TIGHAR member No. 2189 E C R SP, 1998-2016
 
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Ric Gillespie

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Re: The Question of 2-2-V-1
« Reply #132 on: February 15, 2014, 10:50:04 AM »

Any pieces of skin and/or rivets collected from the Idaho crash site too?

No.  There's not much aluminum there and we're very conservative about what we collect from a site.  In 2004, and even last summer, we weren't into skin and rivets.
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James Champion

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Re: The Question of 2-2-V-1
« Reply #133 on: February 15, 2014, 11:45:26 AM »

I'm curious. In regards to Artifact 2-8-I-1a, do the ends show signs of salvage activity (cut or back-n-forth fatigue), or from breakage from the crash (ductile failure). What I'm getting at is the forces that might have pulled the rivets out. And, are the holes the size for a 3/32" #3 rivet like 2-2-V-1, or are they larger due to where it was in the aircraft? If the holes are #3 size, it implys 0.032" skin was attached.
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Ric Gillespie

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Re: The Question of 2-2-V-1
« Reply #134 on: February 15, 2014, 01:36:06 PM »

I'm curious. In regards to Artifact 2-8-I-1a, do the ends show signs of salvage activity (cut or back-n-forth fatigue), or from breakage from the crash (ductile failure).

One end is a finished end.  The other end (the bent-up end) was salvaged by our team.  The rivet holes show clear signs of prying on the bottom (buck tail) side of the stringer so I suspect that was also done by our team.  I wasn't there.  I can ask the guys if they remember removing this piece.

And, are the holes the size for a 3/32" #3 rivet like 2-2-V-1, or are they larger due to where it was in the aircraft? If the holes are #3 size, it implys 0.032" skin was attached.

Yep.  Definitely size #3 holes.  Exactly like the holes in 2-2-V-1.
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