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Author Topic: Musings on the nature of evidence  (Read 20427 times)

Ric Gillespie

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Musings on the nature of evidence
« on: June 09, 2013, 09:03:12 AM »

We have just received a new independent expert report on the sonar anomaly.  Some of it is pretty technical. As soon as I'm sure I understand it myself I'll write a new Niku VII update for the TIGHAR website and publish the report.

Struggling with this anomaly has gotten me thinking about the nature of evidence in an investigation like The Earhart Project and maybe in all investigations.  Whenever our research brings us new information that appears to support our hypothesis we ask ourselves the same question - Is this a clue or just a coincidence?
There are people who take the position that nothing is a clue unless it is, in itself, absolute proof that the hypothesis is correct.  Those are the people who say has TIGHAR has found not one shred of evidence that Earhart was ever on Nikumaroro. 

So what is the nature of a clue and of evidence.  Are they the same?
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Chris Johnson

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Re: Musings on the nature of evidence
« Reply #1 on: June 09, 2013, 09:32:35 AM »

OK  no one else online and I'm dodging mowing the lawn so I'll bite.

Clue:
Something that serves to guide or direct in the solution of a problem or mystery.

Evidence:
  • A thing or things helpful in forming a judgment
  • Something indicative; an outward sign
  • LawThe documentary or oral statements and the material objects admissible as testimony in a court of law
Source Free Directory Online

My broad view is that a clue can be anything directing you to evidence so in this instance the bones file is a clue that directs TIGHAR to Nikumaroro to search for either a. further clues or b. Evidence.  Evidence being something tangible such as a piece of equipment with a serial number or bone fragment with DNA or substantial identifiable remains of the Electra (with serial number for those totally anal people out there)

Now to be told I'm wrong?
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Irvine John Donald

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Re: Musings on the nature of evidence
« Reply #2 on: June 09, 2013, 10:12:19 AM »

Chris.... I would say that's a very good description.
Respectfully Submitted;

Irv
 
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Mark Appel

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Re: Musings on the nature of evidence
« Reply #3 on: June 09, 2013, 12:09:56 PM »

"...Whenever our research brings us new information that appears to support our hypothesis we ask ourselves the same question... what is the nature of a clue and of evidence.  Are they the same?"

I submit that a clue is an indicator of what might be. Clues are elements of an investigation that surface first. In investigations of all sorts clues either pan out to be exactly nothing, or indeed point to the eventual solution. As the investigation evolves and correlations, supporting testimony, and other data are discovered and delineated, clues may solidify into evidence. Evidence that is admissible for peer review and further rigor.

Even in the extreme, if some of the HD footage revealed a clearly identifiable airplane part, that would be a clue but not yet evidence until supporting correlations and confirmations had been established.

What impresses me about TIGHAR is the organizational commitment to the rigors of science, logic and self examination--the very processes and philosophies that really define the difference between "clue" and "evidence."

When I first became aware of TIGHAR, I saw clues that indicated the high integrity of the organization and the effort to solve the Earhart mystery. With time, as more clues have precipitated and correlations were established I now have a trove of supporting evidence... Which is why I'm going to up my membership.
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Greg Daspit

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Re: Musings on the nature of evidence
« Reply #4 on: June 09, 2013, 12:32:37 PM »

I think a clue is something that gives a reason to do further investigation.
I think evidence is something judged, so is up to the person judging it to decide if it is evidence or coincidence, or a clue.
3971R
 
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Chris Johnson

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Re: Musings on the nature of evidence
« Reply #5 on: June 09, 2013, 12:40:19 PM »

I think a clue is something that gives a reason to do further investigation.
I think evidence is something judged, so is up to the person judging it to decide if it is evidence or coincidence, or a clue.

That fits, certainly with a 'jury/trial' kind of situation though the judge does advise.

I think clue and evidence is what TIGHAR does well (apart from the shoes but that's not a definite no the same as its not a definite yes, jury still out waiting further clues?)
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Greg Daspit

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Re: Musings on the nature of evidence
« Reply #6 on: June 09, 2013, 12:56:56 PM »

I think a clue is something that gives a reason to do further investigation.
I think evidence is something judged, so is up to the person judging it to decide if it is evidence or coincidence, or a clue.

That fits, certainly with a 'jury/trial' kind of situation though the judge does advise.

I think clue and evidence is what TIGHAR does well (apart from the shoes but that's not a definite no the same as its not a definite yes, jury still out waiting further clues?)

I agree. The standards for looking for something are different from proving something.
I became a member when TIGHAR was on their way back from Niku VII, when some people were saying it "failed". I thought their case was still valid and joined then. They are doing good work and I plan to stay a member and contribute more.
3971R
 
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richie conroy

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Re: Musings on the nature of evidence
« Reply #7 on: June 09, 2013, 01:27:08 PM »

Hi All

Clue: A piece of evidence or information used in the detection of a crime or solving of a mystery.

Evidence: The available body of facts or information indicating whether a belief or proposition is true or valid.

Thanks Richie
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Tim Mellon

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Re: Musings on the nature of evidence
« Reply #8 on: June 09, 2013, 06:42:13 PM »


So what is the nature of a clue and of evidence.  Are they the same?

Ric, IMHO I really think you need to figure this out.
Tim
Chairman,  CEO
PanAm Systems

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richie conroy

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Re: Musings on the nature of evidence
« Reply #9 on: June 09, 2013, 07:14:42 PM »

Clue: aircraft skin consistent with a Lockheed Electra.

Evidence: aircraft skin consistent with a Lockheed Electra with serial number on it.

Funny it only works one way, Clue lead's to Evidence, But Evidence don't require a Clue

Thank's Richie 
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jgf1944

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Re: Musings on the nature of evidence
« Reply #10 on: June 09, 2013, 08:30:42 PM »

Clue: when doing your story, the media publishes negative remarks from opponents of your theory.
Evidence: no one else in the story but you.
GO NIKU VIII
J. Guthrie Ford
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John B. Shattuck

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Re: Musings on the nature of evidence
« Reply #11 on: June 10, 2013, 02:29:22 PM »

Clue:
Something that serves to guide or direct in the solution of a problem or mystery.

Evidence:
1. A thing or things helpful in forming a conclusion or judgment
2. Something indicative; an outward sign.
3. Law: The documentary or oral statements and the material objects admissible as testimony in a court of law.

www.thefreedictionary.com

Basically Clue and Evidence are synonyms and pretty much the same.  I think our collective understanding of their implied meanings would give more substance to evidence over clue. 

In our endeavor we have a body of evidence consistent with, but not yet conclusive proof of, our hypothesis... I think some are waiting for a body of evidence like the legal "beyond a reasonable doubt" standard; some of us already accept the "preponderance of evidence" standard (just to carry the legal analogy a bit further).  In other strings we've discussed the smoking gun, or any idiot artifact; some point of evidence (i.e. DNA, serial numbered part) that removes any reasonable doubt from our conclusion based on our body of evidence.
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Bill Lloyd

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Re: Musings on the nature of evidence
« Reply #12 on: June 12, 2013, 08:39:32 AM »

We have just received a new independent expert report on the sonar anomaly.  Some of it is pretty technical. As soon as I'm sure I understand it myself I'll write a new Niku VII update for the TIGHAR website and publish the report.

Struggling with this anomaly has gotten me thinking about the nature of evidence in an investigation like The Earhart Project and maybe in all investigations.  Whenever our research brings us new information that appears to support our hypothesis we ask ourselves the same question - Is this a clue or just a coincidence?
There are people who take the position that nothing is a clue unless it is, in itself, absolute proof that the hypothesis is correct.  Those are the people who say has TIGHAR has found not one shred of evidence that Earhart was ever on Nikumaroro. 

So what is the nature of a clue and of evidence.  Are they the same?


Evidence is anything that you are  proffering  that you think supports your hypothesis. This evidence certainly would encompass any clue that you may have. The issue would be relevance and materiality, that is, it is relevant if it intended to establish the point for which it is offered and material if the point bears on the issue of the case.(Mueller, Evidence Under The Rules, 1993)

The Lambrecht article that contains his report of the aerial search could be admissible as both relevant and material. It is evidence that supports the assertion that Earhart was not on Gardner on July 9, 1937.  The Pan American papers could be admissible as both relevant and material as it indicates radio transmissions from the vicinity of Gardner.  From that you argue that Earhart was the only viable source of those transmissions.

Your claim is that the preponderance of the evidence indicates that Earhart missed Howland and then flew down the line and found Gardner. All of those things you list as supporting this event is your evidence, viz, the radio call “on the line 157, 337.”  Your argument is that this bit of evidence proves that AE was flying toward Gardner.  It could be argued, as Gary LaPook does, that this evidence proves that AE was using the offset method to find Howland and not to fly to the Phoenix Islands, therefore, in this case, your evidence is not so strong.

It is my view that if you went into a court of law seeking a declaratory judgment that validates your hypothesis, you would not succeed. The most damaging evidence against you is the fact that the Navy searched the island and did not find the Electra nor Earhart and Noonan. You would lose on this point alone even though you have offered many reasons for the failure of the Navy aviators, not enough time looking, no flare pistol, helicopter flyover video and CAP SAR data.

The Betty Notebook evidence could be challenged and probably thrown out as hearsay. In deference to Betty, the notebook should not even be submitted.

I know this is not what you want to hear  but it is just a very brief note as to what I see. I certainly am not the accomplished, learned, counselor at law that Gary is but I do have significant flying time, both military and commercial over water and, later in life, used my VA benefits for law school.

In regards to the Mellon case, the reason that I posted the complaint a few days ago is that once filed on PACER(Public Access to Court Electronic Records) it becomes public record along with the docket of the case and you are a public figure. 

I am sure you have retained very good counsel, notwithstanding, an appropriate action at this point is a Rule 12b motion to dismiss. 
« Last Edit: June 12, 2013, 04:52:11 PM by Bill Lloyd »
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Mark Appel

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Re: Musings on the nature of evidence
« Reply #13 on: June 12, 2013, 09:43:12 AM »

"It is my view that if you went into a court of law seeking a declaratory judgment that validates your hypothesis, you would not succeed..."

Wow. That's a big wave-off! Guess TIGHAR should continue the existing course of research and avoid going to court seeking a declaratory judgement validating their hypothesis...
"Credibility is Everything"
 
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Ric Gillespie

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Re: Musings on the nature of evidence
« Reply #14 on: June 12, 2013, 09:46:10 AM »

Your claim is that the preponderance of the evidence indicates that Earhart missed Howland and then flew down the line and found Gardner. All of those things you list as supporting this event is your evidence, viz, the radio call “on the line 157, 337.”  Your argument is that this bit of evidence proves that AE was flying toward Gardner.  It could be argued, as Gary LaPook does, that this evidence proves that AE was using the offset method to find Howland and not to fly to the Phoenix Islands, therefore, in this case, your evidence is not so strong.

This is the old troll straw man that TIGHAR is claiming that this, that or the other "proves" something.  I have never argued that “on the line 157, 337” proves that AE was flying toward Gardner.  If Gary LaPook argued that it proves she was using the offset method he would be just as wrong as I would be if I said it proves she was flying toward Gardner.

It is my view that if you went into a court of law seeking a declaratory judgment that validates your hypothesis, you would not succeed.

Nor would we expect to. We're conducting a transparent investigation. We share the information we have uncovered and explain why we think the hypothesis deserves further testing.  Everyone is free to agree or disagree.

I know this is not what you want to hear  but it is just a very brief note as to what I see. I certainly am not the accomplished, learned, counselor at law that Gary is but I do have significant flying time, both military and commercial over water and, later in life, used my VA benefits for law school.

What I don't like to hear is that someone who reads this forum can so thoroughly misunderstand what we're doing.

In regards to the Mellon case, the reason that I posted the complaint a few days ago is that once filed on PACER(Public Access to Court Electronic Records) it becomes public record along with the docket of the case and you are a public figure. 

For better or for worse, I've been a public figure for a long time.  I have not criticized you for posting the complaint.  We publicly acknowledged the suit and stated our rejection of its allegations in a notice on the TIGHAR website before the first Associated Press story was filed. We are extremely pleased and gratified by the subsequent out-pouring of public support.
 
I am sure you have retained very good council, notwithstanding, an appropriate action at this point is a Rule 12b motion to dismiss.

Thank you for your advice.
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