The Cook Photo

[Chris Johnson]

If it is a Squirellfish then the following from [urlhttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holocentridae]Wikipedia[/url] should help with scale

Most have a maximum length of 15–35 cm (6–14 in), but Sargocentron iota barely reaches 8 cm (3 in), and S. spiniferum and Holocentrus adscensionis can reach more than 50 cm (20 in)

I did think cowling on first looking at it but am no expert on aircraft.

[Tim Mellon]

When Jeff Glickman showed me the picture he told me the fish was a red snapper, which are common to the area. He also claimed that a snapper of average age could be assumed, and that that gave some scale to the photo.

[Chris Johnson]

Lots of pretty pictures of Fish for people to look at! :)

So you may be able to ID the fish in the Cook Photo.

For me it dosn't look like the one in Tims photo.

[Ric Gillespie]

The similarity of the object in the Cook Photo to an airplane engine cowling is what got Tom King's attention when he saw the photo during an Explorers Club slideshow in September 2011.  I, too, noted the similarity when I first saw the photo in April 2012 but within days one of the marine biologists at the New England Aquarium had estimated the size of the "squirrel-fish looking thing" as "probably 8-10 inches total length."  If the estimate is even close to correct, the object is way too small to be an Electra engine cowling.

This is the first Ive heard that Jeff Glickman thought that the fish might be a red snapper.  Jeff didn't talk to the New England Aquarium folks.  To my knowledge there are no red snapper in the South Central Pacific.

The other thing that bothers me about the hypothesis that the object in the photo is an engine and cowling is that Craig couldn't re-locate it in 2012.  It seems like an engine and aluminum cowling sitting there without the obscuring halmeda growth we see in the 2009 photo would be easy to spot.

My opinion about the object now is about the same as it was a year ago.  It might be man-made but I can't connect it to anything on the Electra. 

[Chris Johnson]

Ric is correct, the Red Snapper is native of the Gulf of Mexico and Eastern Seaboard.

The object appears round and has some 'depth to it' something nags the back of my mind about the colony having wheeled objects to do with the fishing canoes.

[Chris Johnson]

I can't get the image of a 'train wheel' out of my head, the kind you see on those hand cranked carts from black and white Western's if you know what I mean?

[Tim Collins]

I don't even see the fish for crying out loud!  Is that a tubular/rod type thing on the left hand sud about a third of the way up from the bottom.

Any chance of getting a grid or x & Y axis references applied to the photo for discussion's sake?

[Ric Gillespie]

Any chance of getting a grid or x & Y axis references applied to the photo for discussion's sake?

How about this?

[John Ousterhout]

To my eyes it strongly resembles a tire carcass.  The proportions look odd though - with a relatively large wheel diameter, what most people call the "rim", compared to the tire.  That is the opposite of the Lockheed tires, which had small diameter wheels relative to the tires.
Old tires are quite commonly used for boat bumpers, making it unsurprising to find one in a marine environment.  They also come in a wide range of sizes.
Tire markings are molded in, and may be readible after long submersion.
I recall a discussion of a circular "wire" object in a different thread a couple years ago.  One (of many) hypotheses at that time was that it might be the remnant of a tire bead.

[Tim Collins]

Any chance of getting a grid or x & Y axis references applied to the photo for discussion's sake?

How about this?

That'll help I'm sure.

Oh my, all of a sudden the alleged item in the image just became clear to me! Why didn't I see it the first time I saw the picture? You may be on to something. Can't wait for Jeff's analysis to come back.

[Ric Gillespie]

Can't wait for Jeff's analysis to come back.

Jeff's analysis is that there is probably a man-made object there.  He sees a strong implication of a circular object with what appears to be a central shaft sticking out and he can see some hard, straight edges in the interior (D4).  Scale is the problem.  All we have to go on is the fish. If that was a five-foot Blacktip shark lurking in the shadows or a nice fat Grouper we could get pretty excited about the object's apparent similarity to an Electra engine and cowling, but I can't find any kind of fish that lives out there and looks anything like that guy that could possibly be big enough to let this object be what we wish it was.

[Joe Cerniglia]

Scale is the problem.

What about a steering wheel for better scale comparison?  I have a harder time imagining a cockpit steering wheel detaching from the airplane than I do a tire.  Is there any precedent for cockpit debris separating from the fuselage in cases of submerged aircraft that escaped major damage prior to sinking?

Joe Cerniglia
TIGHAR #3078ECR

[Ric Gillespie]

I just removed a posting by a forum member who disregarded my request not to re-post the photo.  He asked, "Ric, do you know if Jeff can check out if there is what appears to be a human skull and bones in a crevice located below that circular object?"

I'll say this one more time. There is no way that human remains would survive exposed in an underwater environment such as we see at Nikumaroro.  Let's keep our discussions of this photo rational and please respect the owner's wishes and do not download or re-post the photo. 

[Ric Gillespie]

What about a steering wheel for better scale comparison?  I have a harder time imagining a cockpit steering wheel detaching from the airplane than I do a tire.  Is there any precedent for cockpit debris separating from the fuselage in cases of submerged aircraft that escaped major damage prior to sinking?

Interesting thought Joe. A photo taken in Darwin suggests that there was a "steering wheel" (we aviators tend to call then "yokes" for some reason) loaded aboard the Electra along with the parachutes she picked up in Darwin, a spare tailwheel, and a nitrogen bottle for servicing the oleo struts. My guess is that they had removed the yoke from the copilot's side to give Fred more room.  In any event, a yoke rattling around in the back could easily fall out of the airplane during its presumed breakup in the surf.  The question is, does this object look like it could be the yoke in the Darwin photo?

[Ric Gillespie]

Whadya think?