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Author Topic: Course lines, speed lines, where's Howland, and... where did she go?  (Read 86297 times)

JNev

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Re: Course lines, speed lines, where's Howland, and... where did she go?
« Reply #75 on: December 14, 2011, 09:27:28 PM »


Ric
I see, no evidence found for A, nor B, therefore it must have been C, even though there is no evidence for C (straight line route).

Your "nverted " annology is beneath you and doesn't deserve serious consideration nor comment.
I'll have to look at the Itasca radio log info to source the info for you.

Absence of "A" and "B" may provide evidence of "C", given a couple of things:
- FN had before expressed use of celestial and radio beam in what sounds alot like direct routing for Pan Am
- FN appears to have been expecting a similar approach by the presence of NR16020's RDF equipment, etc.

We'll never know for sure in this world - the truth of it evaporated from the grey matter in a couple of skulls somewhere in the Pacific long ago, and NR16020 can never reveal that secret (short of a message in a bottle).

All would not be 'lost', however, if a direct route attempt failed at first: the off-set principle could have still been applied after the fact of realizing your original plan failed.  Consider: if the Gardner theory is correct, then it was not a failure of FN's navigation so much as a failure to be detected on Gardner, for whatever set of reasons.

As to 'inverted', well, don't be too hard on Ric - AE did seem to spend a lot of time standing on her head.  :P

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Harry Howe, Jr.

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Re: Course lines, speed lines, where's Howland, and... where did she go?
« Reply #76 on: December 14, 2011, 10:59:45 PM »


Ric
PDF of Itasca radio log
Position2 page 3  WL Galten  time around 0843
"KHAQQ to ITASCA
We  are on the line 157 337 ... We are running on line...  "

I wonder what line she is referring to  Maybe the line of position LOP 157/337?  Ya Think?
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Ric Gillespie

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Re: Course lines, speed lines, where's Howland, and... where did she go?
« Reply #77 on: December 15, 2011, 06:57:39 AM »

I wonder what line she is referring to  Maybe the line of position LOP 157/337?  Ya Think?

Yes I do, as does just about everybody, but you quoted AE as saying  "Running N and S on the LOP 157/337..." and it's dangerous misquote sources.  Even though we all agree that she was referring to an LOP we must keep in mind that it's an assumption. 
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Harry Howe, Jr.

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Re: Course lines, speed lines, where's Howland, and... where did she go?
« Reply #78 on: December 15, 2011, 10:38:45 AM »


Ric
My apologies for committing the "dangerous" act of adding the obvious to the radio message.
337 is 23 degrees W of North and 157 is 23 degrees E of South.  She was running N and S on the line (actually she was probably running NNW and SSE on the line but we have to allow for her sloppiness as a radio communicator).  How else could she be running? East and West on the line 157 337?

I've read your opinions with respect to the 0843 message and they are just that, opinions, assumptions.
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Ric Gillespie

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Re: Course lines, speed lines, where's Howland, and... where did she go?
« Reply #79 on: December 15, 2011, 11:16:53 AM »

I've read your opinions with respect to the 0843 message and they are just that, opinions, assumptions.

The documented references to the last message being heard at 08:55 are neither opinions nor assumptions.
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Harry Howe, Jr.

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Re: Course lines, speed lines, where's Howland, and... where did she go?
« Reply #80 on: December 15, 2011, 12:31:26 PM »


Ric
I wasn't aware that I was commenting in any way, except for referring to the time in Galten's log, about the time.  The man putting the info in his log wrote the time as 0843 (first evidence, best evidence).
In your Project Research Bulletin "Last Words" dated 04/07/2007 there are numerous quotes to a transmission  "We  are running N and S on the line 157.337"  If she didn't say it, why do yoiu refer to it and attribute it to Thompson, Carey, et al in that research bulletin?
Your interpretations of XX overs, paten moves, etc time changes, etc are just that  interpretations, opinions.
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Ric Gillespie

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Re: Course lines, speed lines, where's Howland, and... where did she go?
« Reply #81 on: December 15, 2011, 01:04:07 PM »

In your Project Research Bulletin "Last Words" dated 04/07/2007 there are numerous quotes to a transmission  "We  are running N and S on the line 157.337"  If she didn't say it, why do yoiu refer to it and attribute it to Thompson, Carey, et al in that research bulletin?

You apparently don't understand what I wrote.  I quoted Galten, Thompson and Carey accurately. 
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Harry Howe, Jr.

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Re: Course lines, speed lines, where's Howland, and... where did she go?
« Reply #82 on: December 15, 2011, 01:55:12 PM »


I do understand what you wrote.  Apparenty at least three individuals (Galten, Thompson and Carey), who were present at the time of the transmission, thought that they had heard her say "we are running North and South on the line 157 337"  The line 157/337 was also referred to as the LOP.  That's good enough for me, AE said it.

Whether she said it at 0843 Galten's time or 0855 Thompson and Carey's time or 0825 Gillespie's time  is not the topic of my post about AE having said it.  She said it!
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Gary LaPook

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Re: Course lines, speed lines, where's Howland, and... where did she go?
« Reply #83 on: December 15, 2011, 06:48:52 PM »


Gary
3.  202 miles to the vicinty of Howland  then 44 to 66miles (20-30 minutes at 134 nph) WNW of where they expected to see Howland, then they circled back towards Howland and continued on to Gardiner.
4. You said that they intercepted the LOP at 0600, is that Itasca time, the same as 1730 Z?

gl
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Harry Howe, Jr.

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Re: Course lines, speed lines, where's Howland, and... where did she go?
« Reply #84 on: December 15, 2011, 06:59:49 PM »


Gary
No, 1800 GCT (0600 Howland time).
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Gary LaPook

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Re: Course lines, speed lines, where's Howland, and... where did she go?
« Reply #85 on: December 15, 2011, 09:35:54 PM »


Gary
No, 1800 GCT (0600 Howland time).
There is some ambiguity about the time scales. Based on standard time zones, the time on Howland would have a zone description of + 12 so that 0600 would be 1800 Z
But the time actually being kept on Howland by the colonists was the same as Hawaiian time with a zone description of +10:30 making your 0600 the same as 1630 Z.
The time kept on the Itasca had zone description of +11:30 making your 0600 the same aw 1730 Z. (Ric has used this as "Howland time.")
If you are comparing your times to those in the Itasca logs then you are apparently using Itasca time. Since you are talking about her radio messages logged on the Itasca it appears that you are actually using Itasca time. So your 0600 is actually 1730 Z.
See:
https://tighar.org/smf/index.php/topic,433.msg5362.html#msg5362

gl
« Last Edit: December 15, 2011, 09:39:55 PM by Gary LaPook »
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Martin X. Moleski, SJ

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Re: Course lines, speed lines, where's Howland, and... where did she go?
« Reply #86 on: December 16, 2011, 07:25:17 AM »

No, 1800 GCT (0600 Howland time).

I believe that in 1937, Itasca time was offset from GMT by 11.5 hours.

GMT - 11.5 = Itasca time.

See Randy Jacobson's explanation of the 1937 time zones, which is essential for understanding The Jacobson Databases, which, in turn, underlie much of TIGHAR's research into the fatal flight and post-loss radio messages.

I've tried to copy Jacobson's table into a new article in the Ameliapedia.  I've also done my level best to calculate the Itasca time for the transmission timeline
  • I can't explain why Jacobson used a convention that is the opposite of the current UTC convention.  Perhaps that reflects how time zones were calculated in the GMT/Zulu days.
  • I don't trust my math.
Corrections and comments most welcome.

Another maddening wrinkle: the Howland log was kept on GMZ-10.5 while the Itasca was on GMZ-11.5
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« Last Edit: December 16, 2011, 10:53:10 AM by Martin X. Moleski, SJ »
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Harry Howe, Jr.

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Re: Course lines, speed lines, where's Howland, and... where did she go?
« Reply #87 on: December 16, 2011, 12:22:50 PM »


Gary
My 0600 time (1800 GCT) was based on an estimate of 2400 sm from Lae to the midpoint of the distance between Howland and Gardiner on the 157/337 line at an estimated "ground" speed of 133.33 mph (400 miles in 3 hours), i.e. 18 hours for the trip to that point.

I'm not sure what time that would have been in the radio room, o530 I suppose.
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Heath Smith

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Re: Course lines, speed lines, where's Howland, and... where did she go?
« Reply #88 on: December 16, 2011, 02:54:39 PM »


Which time zone was requested by Earhart? I forget but I recall it was different from Itasca.

If the Itasca log was 30 minutes different from all the other time zones, if Earhart sent out a message at 15 minutes after the hour, this was marked as 45 minutes after the hour in the Itasca log?
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Martin X. Moleski, SJ

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Re: Course lines, speed lines, where's Howland, and... where did she go?
« Reply #89 on: December 16, 2011, 06:52:09 PM »


Which time zone was requested by Earhart? I forget but I recall it was different from Itasca.


GMT, a.k.a. Zulu, a.k.a. UTC.

Quote
If the Itasca log was 30 minutes different from all the other time zones, if Earhart sent out a message at 15 minutes after the hour, this was marked as 45 minutes after the hour in the Itasca log?

Yes.

You can see how it works out (if my math is correct) in the transmission timeline.  The GMT times are from Randy Jacobson's work.  I've done the math myself for the Itasca time.  I dug out my old Hex and Time calculator (Radio Shack EC-4075) from the mid-80s and checked my work after first doing it by hand.
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           Marty
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