Bonjour tout le monde !

I'm launching this topic to gather as much information as possible on one of the most massive objects and most likely to be found regarding the 'White Bird'. This is its propeller.

Before becoming an aircraft manufacturer, Levasseur was renowned in France and Europe for the quality of its propellers. Since 1920, one of his specialties had been fixed-pitch metal propellers of the 'Reed' type (from whom he had acquired the license).

Between 1924 and 1928, Levasseur produced over 150 types of these propellers.

The raw parts were made by Schneider, in Le Creusot, in an alloy specific to this firm: Alférium. These parts were then drilled, machined, shaped and bent to form the propeller pitch in the Levasseur workshops.

The two company had a quite long a profitable partnership here from 1924 to 1935 but finacial weaknesses of Levasseur put an end to it.

Reed propellers were more durable, easier to craft/repair and produced fewer marginal vortices than their wooden counterparts.

In the books I have consulted, Alferium is referred to as Duralumin. There were slight differences anyway.

composition:

Duralumin

Aluminium: 93,5-95%
Copper: 4-5,5%.
Magnesium: 0.5%
Manganese: 0.5%.

Alférium (1922)

Aluminium: 95,15%
Copper: 3,25%.
Magnesium: 0.5%
Manganese: 0.6%.
Silicium : 0,5%

mecanical properties (1929) :

density: 2.85
yield strength: 22 kgs minimum (20 kgs for duralumin)
strength (breaking load): 38 kgs (40 kgs for duralumin)
elongation 16% minimum (20% for duralumin)
Like duraluminium, alférium is quenched at around 450°c.

Alferium is not altered by atmospheric agents or ordinary water. However, it is attacked by salt water and hydrochloric acid.

This comment is, however, theoretical, as depending on the environment of the acidic agents, where the presence of sodium chloride can expose the alloy to significant corrosion.

I have no idea if Alférium-made propellers were coated by pure aluminium, as alcad items are.

From what I've read, Schneider took a long time to find a good compromise between the hardness and ductility of its parts. Alferium generally has a lower copper content than conventional duralumin to improve its strength, but for propeller manufacturers (including mainly Levasseur) this hardness comes at the price of more time-consuming, difficult and costly machining. Also when machined, Alférium (early variants) tends to be more brittle.

Schneider was continuously modifying the components of its product to adapt to its customers' needs.

My apologies for the misspelliing. I should know better.

Don W

Don't worry, I get my names mixed up all the time...

My apologies for the misspelliing. I should know better.

Don W

Just a few additional comments:

- The Lorraine W12 e2b does use castor oil ('huile de ricin') for lubrication (page 50 of the 'Centre d'Instruction des Spécialistes de l'Aviation' guide). The warm pressure required for a new engine is 2.5 Kg/cm3, and the operating temperature is between 60 and 70°C.

- Water circuit: The same manual has some interesting information. Demineralized water is used, preferably boiled water... Even if it doesn't appear to be a standard measure, it is advisable to add 25 to 40% neutral glycerine to the water to prevent it freezing when the engine is not running.

- The 'Centre d'instruction de l'Armée de l'Air' also refers to a possible water fillable container at the top of the cylinders (page 36): “No high points in the piping installation without possible release of water and steam (on the ground, when climbing, or in horizontal flight). The radiator (or feeder) must be loaded on top of the cylinders, both in climb and horizontal flight.” The reason for this setup seems to be the possibility of water vapors escaping at the top of the water circuit. The manual also states that the radiator/feeder cap might be drilled for this purpose. In fact, it was specified to empty two liters of water to leave room for expansion and escape of water vapour at the top of the circuit (page 50). 

In spite of several innovative features, the 12E engines family, designed in 1923, was somewhat outdated even for 1927. The power output with their operating pressure, temperature and RPM; was limited without overfeeding, unlike Hispano-Suiza (V12 700 HP attained in 1930). IMO, this is one possible explanation for the continued use of castor oil instead of mineral oil.

BTW Yes, Levassor (not Levasseur) , Before his sudden death in 1897, was an famous early automobiles designer, a time associated with Panhard, then Daimler and even Peugeot.

LTM

Castor oil was commonly used in engine lubricants, both for aircraft and automobiles. Hence the brand name 'Castrol.'

Due to the total-loss oiling systems used in rotary aircraft engines in WWI being lubricated with castor oil, pilots of said aircraft who were inhaling fumes all the time they were flying had chronic diarrhea from its laxative effects.

Lorraine Dietrich is one of the great names of early automobiling -- as is Panhard et Levasseur.

Don W

Did aircraft in that period really use Castor oil as a lubricant. https://www.jstor.org/stable/44643970


, it looks like castor oil would be distinct from petroleum based oils, based on fatty acid content, but I have no idea if it would last in the environment as long.  If it did, it’s preferential use by European aircraft before 1930 might have some diagnostic value

Trace oils in pond sediments can sometimes be detected after  40 years or more according to some journals.  Have sediment samples from around the location where these items been found in the pond been tested for oils/fuel or other chemical contamination that might be related to a plane crash? Sorry if I am suggesting something that was already done

In 2022/23 we tried our damndest to get sediment core samples from the pond for testing.  A paleoecologist at Memorial University in St. John's said that core sample would give us an almost year-by-year compositional history of the sediment.  We had it all set up, but the day we flew the two grad students to the pond to take the core samples, the wind was blowing harder than forecast and the inflatable boat we brought was useless.  Then we came up with a plan to do it in the winter through a hole drilled in the ice. No boat. No wind problem.  We were all set to go when the university faculty went on strike.  By the time that got sorted out, the ice had melted and the paleoecologist bailed because she didn't like all the media attention the project was getting.
In the end, finding unexplained hydrocarbons in 100 year-old sediment wouldn't prove anything and not finding them wouldn't disqualify the hypothesis.  The work we're now doing with the artifacts is proving much more productive.

Trace oils in pond sediments can sometimes be detected after  40 years or more according to some journals.  Have sediment samples from around the location where these items been found in the pond been tested for oils/fuel or other chemical contamination that might be related to a plane crash? Sorry if I am suggesting something that was already done.

Did aircraft in that period really use Castor oil as a lubricant. https://www.jstor.org/stable/44643970

Thanks for your patience. The metallurgist has confirmed my suspicions.  The steel is plated.
That is why the lab results differ from the XRF results.
We were interested in identifying the steel alloy the semi-cyindrical artifact is made of.  We have multiple XRF readings but we wondered if they might be "polluted" by contaminants on the surface of the artifact, so Rick Freeman took a small piece that had broken off the artifact and ground it down until he could see bare, shiny metal. In so doing, he inadvertently ground off the plating, so what the lab analyzed was the base steel minus the plating. What the XRF was seeing is the base metal, plus the plating, plus a layer of paint.

The base metal is carbon steel allied with a little manganese.
Based on averages of the XRF readings, the plating is:
Tin  4.587%
Zinc  1.407%
Manganese 0.458% (minus the manganese in the steel alloy)
Copper 0.394%
Cobalt 0.736%
Chromium  0.129%
Molybdenum 0.125%
Vanadium   0.125%

The paint is:
Silicon   2.633%
Titanium   1.398%
Lead 0.129%
and maybe some of the Cobalt.

"Tin cans" are steel plated with tin as a corrosion inhibitor. They've been around since 1840. The tin plating on this artifact is much more complex than a can of peaches, but its purpose is the same.  The paint added a further layer of protection.  Whether or not it is part of the PL8's water tank, somebody really didn't want this thing to get rusty.
Nevertheless, the portion of this object that was exposed to the pond water corroded completely away over the decades. 
What does that say about the survivability of other un-buried and mostly un-plated steel debris?  No wonder our visual searches have found nothing.

ho Ric, I'd be upset if you had problems with your payroll controller. So I will wait.

BTW i will receive soon a good and lengthy Monography regarding Lorraine Dietrich. You know that this manufacturer first designed sportcars ? Did it ever occur to you that this water tank might have been derived from car apparatus?

Night is coming in Dordogne and i have my little son to care of. I have to tell him the story of a strange big seabird that vanished across the Atlantic some 100 years ago. Take care, I will keep in touch.