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[Jeff Victor Hayden]

It also recognises that TIGHAR really do not have to find all remaining Electra debris - they need only find one artifact that can be given absolute provenance linking it to Earhart's Electra and you case is proven.

The most likeliest identifiable parts Malcolm will have numbers stamped into them, part numbers, assembly numbers, inspection numbers etc.. These are not applied to every part on an aircraft, only the significant parts and, ones which are 'servicables' that can be removed, repaired and swapped onto other aircraft of the same type/model/years. Good examples would be engines, engine mounts (New Britain?) and landing gear but, they all tend to be the heavier parts of the aircraft so would prefer to sink down the seamount as opposed to be washed along it. The lighter stuff may well get mixed up in the Norwich City debris though, wouldn't be surprised.
IMHO of course

[Rob Seasock]

BMangus

There is a screen grab of the "fender" in post #96 of the HD ROV 2012 Footage thread regarding your question on the fuel tank selector switch.

Rob

[Malcolm McKay]

It also recognises that TIGHAR really do not have to find all remaining Electra debris - they need only find one artifact that can be given absolute provenance linking it to Earhart's Electra and you case is proven.

The most likeliest identifiable parts Malcolm will have numbers stamped into them, part numbers, assembly numbers, inspection numbers etc.. These are not applied to every part on an aircraft, only the significant parts and, ones which are 'servicables' that can be removed, repaired and swapped onto other aircraft of the same type/model/years. Good examples would be engines, engine mounts (New Britain?) and landing gear but, they all tend to be the heavier parts of the aircraft so would prefer to sink down the seamount as opposed to be washed along it. The lighter stuff may well get mixed up in the Norwich City debris though, wouldn't be surprised.
IMHO of course

Indeed, however smaller items like instruments have serial numbers and if parts of those were found that still bore serial numbers they might be traced back. And of course there are readily identifiable aircraft parts like propellors, engines etc. that can't be confused with ship components if found in reasonably complete condition. Given that it might be unlikely that small parts could be recovered unless specific permission and proper archaeological methodology was followed in what is a very difficult archaeological environment then it is parts like propellors or the engines that would be the best identifiers on the reef face.

But there is always the possibility, if in the hypothetical case there was a reef landing, that the aircraft actually floated intact from the reef and was washed further out, then sank into much deeper and calmer water. The deeper the water the calmer it is and also there is far less corrosion due to lower oxygen content. If the aircraft sank in deeper water then it could have settled into a falling leaf descent which would have allowed for gentler contact with the sea bed and therefore greater chances of relatively minor structural damage, in comparison with a grinding bumping descent on the reef face and the consequent greater damage. Combine such a gentler descent with the low oxygen content at depth and the consequent retardation of corrosion and there is a possibility that the wreck could be in better condition. So in effect there are two hypothetical conditions the aircraft might be in - ground in small parts if it was stuck on the reef or in the crevasses at its edge, or relatively identifiable and better preserved if it actually descended into the deeper water.   

But irrespective of those examples it is still a fact that a ship does have a lot of small mechanical parts, and instruments that given their exposure to the corrosive effects of immersion for over 75 years (and yes Mr Gillespie I do have a reasonable grasp of what corrosion does to metal items) would mimic similarly corroded and broken up small parts from aircraft. That is why the extent and possible commingling of the known debris field of the Norwich City and the hypothetical one for the Electra need to be defined. Something I would assume that TIGHAR have done so that when Mr Glickman is analysing the video in the search for identifiable items he has an idea where any possible overlap may occur and would thus be able to offer an informed caveat with any identification if necessary. Certainly as an archaeologist that is what I would have done.

[dave burrell]

Malcolm, I had the same concerns as you, and I think you have expressed the "overlap question" well. Ric said the the two fields don't overlap a couple pages back, I believe he has stated it a few times over the last weeks, and also said that the NC wreckage was mapped in direct response to you.
He seems confident the debris fields don't overlap.
Therefore anything found, and subsequently recovered,  should be a unique artifact not related to the NC.

[Malcolm McKay]

Malcolm, I had the same concerns as you, and I think you have expressed the "overlap question" well. Ric said the the two fields don't overlap a couple pages back, I believe he has stated it a few times over the last weeks, and also said that the NC wreckage was mapped in direct response to you.
He seems confident the debris fields don't overlap.
Therefore anything found, and subsequently recovered,  should be a unique artifact not related to the NC.

Dave the problem is that the Norwich City wreck and debris field is known to exist. The debris field of the Electra is purely hypothetical as it has not been established that the aircraft landed on the reef or, to put it bluntly, anywhere near Nikumaroro. Therefore with respect it is a logical fallacy to say with certainty that an existing debris field is not overlapped by a purely hypothetical debris field.  . Accordingly I would submit, with respect, that my question remains unanswered.

[Jeff Victor Hayden]

   Combine such a gentler descent with the low oxygen content at depth and the consequent retardation of corrosion and there is a possibility that the wreck could be in better condition.

Malcolm, oxygen is needed for aluminium to build up an aluminium oxide layer which is what prevents further corrosion. This is one of the factors in preserving the tourists blue lagoon aircraft wrecks, they are close enough to the surface for oxygen to react and create the aluminium oxide layer needed to protect the aluminium.
This technical paper will clear up any further misunderstandings...
http://www.sheetpileeurope.com/uploads/CMI%20technische%20documenten%20(engels)/aluminum_corrosion.pdf

[Malcolm McKay]

   Combine such a gentler descent with the low oxygen content at depth and the consequent retardation of corrosion and there is a possibility that the wreck could be in better condition.

Malcolm, oxygen is needed for aluminium to build up an aluminium oxide layer which is what prevents further corrosion. This is one of the factors in preserving the tourists blue lagoon aircraft wrecks, they are close enough to the surface for oxygen to react and create the aluminium oxide layer needed to protect the aluminium.
This technical paper will clear up any further misunderstandings...
http://www.sheetpileeurope.com/uploads/CMI%20technische%20documenten%20(engels)/aluminum_corrosion.pdf

Thank you I stand corrected - however that doesn't effect that basic premise that if the wreck was washed further out and sank into deeper water away from the disturbed condition at the reef face in shallower water it may well be in better physical condition i.e. not ground up by being banged against the reef.

[John Joseph Barrett]

Malcolm is correct in stating that the Electra debris field has not been established and, therefore, it is impossible to state that it does not overlap with that of the Norwich City. I think the point that Ric has been trying to make is that there is a second debris field which IS separate from the first, which is the known debris from the Norwich City. The key question to be answered is what is the source of the second debris field? Is it the Electra? Some other aircraft? General debris tossed into the ocean by the colonists to dispose of it? A portion of the Norwich City which somehow broke off and floated against the prevailing currents until it broke up and sunk there? All that can be stated is that there are two distinct debris fields that do not appear to overlap. One has a known source, the other does not. Until the second area is identified as to its source and both are thouroughly examined and mapped it is impossible to state 100 percent what is there.  LTM- John

[Tom Swearengen]

Malcolm----I really think that Ric wants to give us the info we are looking for. But---he has to get that info first. I'm not privey to the behind the scenes stuff, and dont want to be. But I'll bet there is alot of long hours viewing the footage to make sure whatever results are found are correct. Lets let them do their work, and support them.

[Jeff Victor Hayden]

Some good points raised by Malcolm and John. The exact location of the second debris field, the one in the HD video, is naturally not being disclosed. However on reading Rics report it gives you some idea of the terrain...

Multi-beam sonar maps of the underwater topography off the west end of Nikumaroro made during the Niku VII expedition show it to be a series of near-vertical cliffs interspersed in places with occasional shelves or moderations in the reef slope. Level sea floor is not reached until 40 kilometers (24 miles) offshore at a depth of 6,000 meters (nearly 20,000 feet). To make matters worse, we found large sections of the reef slope to be unstable and subject to frequent underwater landslides that could easily bury pieces of aircraft wreckage.
The ROV used during the Niku VII expedition had a maximum depth of about 850 meters (2,800 feet) so, in effect, we were looking for debris from the aircraft that came to rest on a shelf or moderate slope between cliffs and did not get covered by coral landslides that, naturally, tend to accumulate on shelves and moderate slopes. The debris field identified by Jeff Glickman is on a moderate slope near the base of a cliff amid apparent coral debris from landslides. For obvious security reasons, we’re not releasing the exact location and depth of the debris field.

http://tighar.org/Projects/Earhart/Archives/Research/Bulletins/63_DebrisField/63_DebrisField.htm   

[Martin X. Moleski, SJ]

Dave the problem is that the Norwich City wreck and debris field is known to exist. The debris field of the Electra is purely hypothetical as it has not been established that the aircraft landed on the reef or, to put it bluntly, anywhere near Nikumaroro. Therefore with respect it is a logical fallacy to say with certainty that an existing debris field is not overlapped by a purely hypothetical debris field.  . Accordingly I would submit, with respect, that my question remains unanswered.

Pictures of Norwich City debris were taken in one location.

The pictures under consideration were taken somewhere else.

These are observations.

They are "facts."

In other words, your question has been answered already, and you keep reposting it as if it hadn't been answered.

What is in the second area is not known, and won't be known, until after Niku VIII.

[Alan Harris]

Malcolm, oxygen is needed for aluminium to build up an aluminium oxide layer which is what prevents further corrosion. This is one of the factors in preserving the tourists blue lagoon aircraft wrecks, they are close enough to the surface for oxygen to react and create the aluminium oxide layer needed to protect the aluminium.

What you are discussing would IMO be a secondary or tertiary effect in terms of long-term corrosion.  As the paper correctly says, the oxide layer forms "instantly" and is very tough (sandpaper and grinding wheels are made from Al2O3).  The layer thickness is self-limiting.  The Electra had all the oxide layer it would ever get when it left the factory, except for areas later abraded or disturbed, and in those areas it would be restored literally within seconds.  The oxygen content of the water might be somewhat relevant only to skin areas that were abraded after immersion, e.g. on the way down a coral slope.

By far the primary factor affecting aluminum longevity in salt water is electrogalvanic action, also discussed in the paper.  Any aluminum parts touching or very close to parts made of steel, or especially brass/copper, could degrade dramatically and quite rapidly.

[Malcolm McKay]

Malcolm is correct in stating that the Electra debris field has not been established and, therefore, it is impossible to state that it does not overlap with that of the Norwich City. I think the point that Ric has been trying to make is that there is a second debris field which IS separate from the first, which is the known debris from the Norwich City. The key question to be answered is what is the source of the second debris field? Is it the Electra? Some other aircraft? General debris tossed into the ocean by the colonists to dispose of it? A portion of the Norwich City which somehow broke off and floated against the prevailing currents until it broke up and sunk there? All that can be stated is that there are two distinct debris fields that do not appear to overlap. One has a known source, the other does not. Until the second area is identified as to its source and both are thouroughly examined and mapped it is impossible to state 100 percent what is there.  LTM- John

Hello John - you may well be right but I have yet to see that this putative second debris field defined and my original point remains that you cannot argue that an unknown field is free of contamination from a known one. Otherwise the unknown field is by definition known and that hasn't been shown. 

[richie conroy]

Malcolm is correct in stating that the Electra debris field has not been established and, therefore, it is impossible to state that it does not overlap with that of the Norwich City. I think the point that Ric has been trying to make is that there is a second debris field which IS separate from the first, which is the known debris from the Norwich City. The key question to be answered is what is the source of the second debris field? Is it the Electra? Some other aircraft? General debris tossed into the ocean by the colonists to dispose of it? A portion of the Norwich City which somehow broke off and floated against the prevailing currents until it broke up and sunk there? All that can be stated is that there are two distinct debris fields that do not appear to overlap. One has a known source, the other does not. Until the second area is identified as to its source and both are thouroughly examined and mapped it is impossible to state 100 percent what is there.  LTM- John

Hello John - you may well be right but I have yet to see that this putative second debris field defined and my original point remains that you cannot argue that an unknown field is free of contamination from a known one. Otherwise the unknown field is by definition known and that hasn't been shown.

No it has been shown, firstly by the debris from Norwich city having appeared in lagoon, Which show's what way the current's goes...

The new debris field is some 400 yard's from shipwreck located under the object in the Bevington image, So unless islanders picked up ship wreckage an dropped it by Nessie there is no reason to believe area is contaminated   

[Malcolm McKay]

Dave the problem is that the Norwich City wreck and debris field is known to exist. The debris field of the Electra is purely hypothetical as it has not been established that the aircraft landed on the reef or, to put it bluntly, anywhere near Nikumaroro. Therefore with respect it is a logical fallacy to say with certainty that an existing debris field is not overlapped by a purely hypothetical debris field.  . Accordingly I would submit, with respect, that my question remains unanswered.

Pictures of Norwich City debris were taken in one location.

The pictures under consideration were taken somewhere else.

These are observations.

They are "facts."

In other words, your question has been answered already, and you keep reposting it as if it hadn't been answered.

What is in the second area is not known, and won't be known, until after Niku VIII.

Dr Moleski - in that second video there is no identified debris as yet. Now by any logical standards for the use of current data it cannot therefore be referred to as a debris field. If at some time in the future something man made is positively identified then the next part of the process is to determine what it is, then if it is an aircraft part you must show that it is from the Electra, if you do that there is absolutely no need for another trip. If it is a ship part then it is more than likely to be off the Norwich City in which case the argument about field contamination I made is right, but at a pinch it could be off any passing vessel. Finally it might just be some fragment of garbage dumped by either an islander or something of unknown origin. But the point is that nothing so far has been identified positively as alien to the natural sea bed material - organic or otherwise.

In other words if people wish to claim that my assessment of the current film is wrong and my assessment of the field contamination argument is wrong then show me the evidence that contradicts me.