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[Joe Cerniglia]

I would urge anyone who wonders whether the general public of the 1930s was familiar with the word "ship" as a synonym for airplane to review the newspapers of that era.  Most major papers had an Aviation Section just as papers today have a Sports Section.  Records for speed, distance, altitude and endurance were being set almost daily.  The public had aviation fever and clamored for news about the latest "ships." There was a whole line of racing planes known as "Mystery Ships."  Watch any of the many aviation-themed Hollywood films of the 1930s and count how many times somebody says something like, "Say, that's a swell ship you have there."

Without a doubt, you've convinced me. This could easily have been a common usage in the 1930s.

Why, even the mystery series the Hardy Boys, popular with boys of Dana's age, has 2 references to ships as airplanes.  From The Great Airport Mystery (1930): "We can use one of the single-engine ships."

I entered the ship debate because I thought it bore upon the authenticity of Dana Randolph. I'm no longer sure it does. Here's why:

One could say Dana knew about the usage of the word 'ship' and put it into his story to enhance a false claim, or perhaps to enhance a true one.

One could not say use of the word 'ship' as airplane is anything approaching 'occult information,' such as Betty Klenck's reception appears to have contained.

One could say these things or not say these things, but, as Finding Amelia shows, one thing is certain: Dana Randolph had no reason to be expecting to hear Earhart when he tuned in his radio on the morning of July 4, 1937. The news demonstrably had not reached Rock Springs that receptions had been claimed heard. There appears to have been, as the book states, "no bandwagon effect."

Therefore, regardless of any semiotic analysis, faulty (as mine was) or otherwise, Dana's story is credible.

Joe Cerniglia

[Brian Tannahill]

it makes no sense that CO and dehydration would affect FN and not AE.

Would the concentration of CO be the same throughout the cabin? 

Where did Fred spend most of his time during the flight?  Up front, next to Amelia, or at the navigator's table toward the rear of the plane?

The Electra is 38 feet long (38 feet 7 inches, to be precise).  The navigator's table was at about station 307, to pick a point (based on the location of the window that was patched); that's 307 inches, 25.5 feet, from the tip of the plane, so 20(?) feet behind the pilot's seat.

If Fred had consulted the charts at some point between daybreak and the time of the landing, he would been at the navigator's table.  (I presume the charts were at the navigators table, correct me if I'm wrong.)

How did the plane's air circulation work?  Is it possible for Fred to have been breathing enough CO at the navigator's table to affect him, while Amelia up front took in a lower concentration?

[Ric Gillespie]

Where did Fred spend most of his time during the flight?  Up front, next to Amelia, or at the navigator's table toward the rear of the plane?

Of course there is no way to know for sure but based upon what Amelia wrote in Last Flight it sounds like Fred spent much of his time up front.

How long do the effects of CO last if it doesn't kill you outright?  We're talking about Fred's behavior three days after their arrival. 

[Brian Tannahill]

It depends on severity, but the Merck Manual says "Most people who develop mild carbon monoxide poisoning recover quickly when moved into fresh air." 

According to NIH,

"Carbon monoxide poisoning can cause death. For those who survive, recovery is slow. How well a person does depends on the amount and length of exposure to the carbon monoxide. Permanent brain damage may occur."

Another source says:

"Like other types of anoxic brain injury, acute CO poisoning may lead to quite severe long-term neurological problems, with disturbances in memory, language, cognition, mood and behaviour. The damage to the basal ganglia, which is a particular feature of CO poisoning, may lead to a movement disorder resembling Parkinson's disease. An unusual feature of acute CO poisoning is the delayed deterioration in neurological condition which may be seen in some cases, occurring anything from a few days to as long as five to six weeks after the initial exposure."

I have no expertise in this.  I'm just looking it up in medical sources.

For what it's worth I'm skeptical of the carbon monoxide poisoning idea.  But since it's a possibility I'm interested in looking at the details.  It seems unlikely that Fred would be affected severely enough to still suffer effects three days later, while Amelia was (apparently) not affected at all.

[Jerry Germann]

From photos, it seems at every stop the pair appear tired , but not outwardly suffering from effects from CO, Fred is usually seen in them lighting up a cigarette and conversing alongside Amelia, during the photo shoots. If an escape of CO occurred to affect Fred,it would have seemed to have had to happen during that last flight,....However; , it seems Fred was able to convey to Amelia that they were on a LOP 157/337 very late into the flight...if he was impaired from the effects of CO at that point , how reliable would that information be?

[Friend Weller]

Where did Fred spend most of his time during the flight?  Up front, next to Amelia, or at the navigator's table toward the rear of the plane?

Of course there is no way to know for sure but based upon what Amelia wrote in Last Flight it sounds like Fred spent much of his time up front.

How long do the effects of CO last if it doesn't kill you outright?  We're talking about Fred's behavior three days after their arrival.

A thought for pondering.....2-2-V-1 "removed" to create greater ventilation in the cabin (heat, gasoline fumes) allowing the intake of exhaust fumes from the starboard engine running just fast enough to charge the battery.  The cockpit has windows and the overhead hatch for a degree of fresh air ventilation.  The aft cabin door may or may not be able to be opened (rising water, airframe distortion) preventing much cross-cabin airflow.  Perhaps CO was a contributing factor in Fred's demise, especially if he had to spend much time at the navigator's desk trying to figure out where they had landed.

[Jerry Germann]

One could say these things or not say these things, but, as Finding Amelia shows, one thing is certain: Dana Randolph had no reason to be expecting to hear Earhart when he tuned in his radio on the morning of July 4, 1937. The news demonstrably had not reached Rock Springs that receptions had been claimed heard. There appears to have been, as the book states, "no bandwagon effect."

Therefore, regardless of any semiotic analysis, faulty (as mine was) or otherwise, Dana's story is credible.

Joe Cerniglia

Joe,

I agree Dana had no reason to expect to have heard Earhart on his radio on July 4th,...but what of his habits , ...was he a daily user of his set? Had he already heard of the Earhart loss and the purported messages coming from the Electra beforehand by it's use? What of national newspapers, some of these may have been delivered on a daily basis to Rock Springs, and then there is word of mouth...maybe the best tool for relaying information...Word spreads quickly....Telephone, Telegraph, Tell the lady down the street... He seemed to known about Earhart and her predicament , and thus his excitement concerning possibly having heard her.

[Bill Mangus]

Where did Fred spend most of his time during the flight?  Up front, next to Amelia, or at the navigator's table toward the rear of the plane?

Of course there is no way to know for sure but based upon what Amelia wrote in Last Flight it sounds like Fred spent much of his time up front.

How long do the effects of CO last if it doesn't kill you outright?  We're talking about Fred's behavior three days after their arrival.

A thought for pondering.....2-2-V-1 "removed" to create greater ventilation in the cabin (heat, gasoline fumes) allowing the intake of exhaust fumes from the starboard engine running just fast enough to charge the battery.  The cockpit has windows and the overhead hatch for a degree of fresh air ventilation.  The aft cabin door may or may not be able to be opened (rising water, airframe distortion) preventing much cross-cabin airflow.  Perhaps CO was a contributing factor in Fred's demise, especially if he had to spend much time at the navigator's desk trying to figure out where they had landed.

Wouldn't the prevailing winds have prevented much CO from accumulating in the cabin. Doesn't take much circulation to dilute CO below any harmful level.

[jgf1944]

it makes no sense that CO and dehydration would affect FN and not AE.

Is it possible for Fred to have been breathing enough CO at the navigator's table to affect him, while Amelia up front took in a lower concentration?

   Hi Brian. At least during the post-loss period, I wonder just how much time FN spent at the nav table. To be heard by radiotelephone FN had to be in the cockpit where the microphone was; and in 9 of the 16 credible radiotelephone reports a male voice was heard. Also, going back and forth between cockpit and nav table involved crawling along a platform installed above the fuselage fuel tanks. Given the putative dehydration factor and the putative "serious injury," I am skeptical that FN was a good candidate for using the cockpit-to-aft crawl platform. And of course AE was not going to let FN go aft by crawling over her to exit the aircraft, which AE appears to be dead set against happening in Betty's Notebook. LTM, Guthrie

[Joe Cerniglia]

Joe,

I agree Dana had no reason to expect to have heard Earhart on his radio on July 4th,...but what of his habits , ...was he a daily user of his set?

Based on the report from the July 6th and 7th edition of the Rock Springs Rocket, reprinted here, Dana Randolph appears to have been a radio hobbyist for eight years prior to hearing what he heard. Details of his use of his radio are not specified.

Had he already heard of the Earhart loss and the purported messages coming from the Electra beforehand by it's use?

Based on what I read in Finding Amelia (pp 142ff) the news story, linked above, left the impression, later shown to be false, that Dana Randolph was the first to claim hearing Earhart. I think the working assumption has been that the local news outlet, the Rock Springs Rocket, reported based on the information they had and that this is likely the best information the Randolphs had. To be a motivated hoaxer, one has to think one has a shot at believability. It does not appear Dana Randolph had any basis to believe he would be believed - unless, of course, he was telling the truth.

What of national newspapers, some of these may have been delivered on a daily basis to Rock Springs, and then there is word of mouth...maybe the best tool for relaying information...Word spreads quickly....Telephone, Telegraph, Tell the lady down the street...

I would say Dana's 'alibi,' if he needed one, was not airtight. However, Rock Springs, according to Finding Amelia, was a coal-mining town in the Great Depression. Home delivery of the New York Times, or even the Wyoming Tribune, was still a rarity, I am guessing, based on limited means of the residents. The local paper went to press only once every two days. Radio reports had to be local receptions (had shortwave news updates arrived yet?). The bottom line is the profile is a fairly unlikely one for a hoaxer. But, yes, of course it is possible Dana Randolph had some advance notice to listen for Earhart.

He seemed to know about Earhart and her predicament , and thus his excitement concerning possibly having heard her.

The Rock Springs Rocket news item states Dana Randolph heard "This is Amelia Earhart." As with other casual listeners at the time, that had to be pretty startling on its own.

Bear in mind - the opinion expressed in Finding Amelia is that Dana Randolph's account is credible. Credible does not necessarily mean unimpeachable. One can always find ways to create a contrary opinion. Facts that tend to support an interpretation as true do not mean unequivocally it is true.

Based on what I have read, however, and for what it is worth, it seems to me Dana Randolph was telling the truth.

Joe Cerniglia

[Jerry Germann]

JULY 4, 0400-0425 hrs.
Dana Randolph, Wyoming, SC# 81
Randolph claims he heard Earhart say, “This is Amelia Earhart. Ship is on a reef south of the equator. Station KH9QQ.” The woman then began to give her location, but the signal faded before it was given. That sequence was repeated an unknown number of times during a 25 minute period.
   All Objective material. Score, O.

Thank you for your response Joe.  I don't believe Dana was a deliberate hoaxer....., I am trying to get a grasp of the whole report concerning the message...the last line .... That sequence was repeated an unknown number of times during a 25 minute period. Does that mean her name and call numbers and ship on a reef were heard an unknown number of times, ( each and every time)...however ; when it came to her location,... each and every time that part of the message faded out? If that is the case, that may seem suspect to some.

[Monty Fowler]

And it has been discussed before, but let's not forget the racial aspect of Randolph's claim. He, more than any of the others who say they heard Earhart and Noonan, ran the risk of a public excoriation, or worse, if he was found to be lying.

LTM,
Monty Fowler, TIGHAR No. 2189 EC

[Friend Weller]

And it has been discussed before, but let's not forget the racial aspect of Randolph's claim. He, more than any of the others who say they heard Earhart and Noonan, ran the risk of a public excoriation, or worse, if he was found to be lying.

LTM,
Monty Fowler, TIGHAR No. 2189 EC

Monty, I concur.  Even today, Rock Springs is a rough town.  I've been there, done business there, worked there.  There's friendlier places in the west.  I can only imagine that public excoriation would have been the least of Dana Randolph's worries for falsifying a report of this magnitude in 1937.

[Friend Weller]

A thought for pondering.....2-2-V-1 "removed" to create greater ventilation in the cabin (heat, gasoline fumes) allowing the intake of exhaust fumes from the starboard engine running just fast enough to charge the battery.  The cockpit has windows and the overhead hatch for a degree of fresh air ventilation.  The aft cabin door may or may not be able to be opened (rising water, airframe distortion) preventing much cross-cabin airflow.  Perhaps CO was a contributing factor in Fred's demise, especially if he had to spend much time at the navigator's desk trying to figure out where they had landed.

Wouldn't the prevailing winds have prevented much CO from accumulating in the cabin. Doesn't take much circulation to dilute CO below any harmful level.

Still gnats, mosquitoes, and other minute insects find sheltering eddies in strong winds near concavities next to structures.  I can't help but think of when I'm at the transmitter site and even in a strong wind that you would think would clear the air of all insects, opening the truck door immediately sucks these critters in the the cab of the truck for my dining, dancing, and driving pleasure. 

Depending on the prevailing wind and propwash, if 2-2-v-1 was removed from the fuselage this may have created a propensity for a vacuum funneling airflow into the cabin and out through the cockpit fenestrations.  CO levels may have been higher in the aft cabin and perhaps on the starboard side of the cockpit.  Fresh air entering through the overhead hatch and the port side cockpit window may have resulted in cleaner air near the left-hand seat.  Of course, we don't know the possible orientation of the aircraft on the reef nor can we easily prove any of the CO poisoning possibilities but it's worthy of consideration.  Then again, FN could have simply whacked his head on the airframe or taken a septic tumble on the reef resulting in his putative injury.

[Diane James]

If my understanding is correct, the "patch" shows evidence of having been torn outward from the airframe by water pressure.  If that's so, at the time the patch was torn free the radios would have been inundated with seawater. None of the radio transmissions, therefore, could have been made after the patch came off.