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Author Topic: Patch photos and Purdue visit  (Read 23231 times)

Ric Gillespie

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Patch photos and Purdue visit
« on: April 24, 2015, 05:10:25 PM »

Forensic imaging specialist Jeff Glickman, Jeff's associate Steve Jacobs, TIGHAR archaeologist Gary Quigg and I spent most of Thursday, April 23 in the Purdue Special Collections archive.  The archivist said that we were the first researchers to physically visit and use the Earhart Collection in the four years she has been there. 'Nuff said.

We looked at many photos and took max-resolution copy photos of several.  Jeff also examined the hi-res tiff of the Darwin Hangar photo that was recently released.

Our findings:


•  The hi-res Darwin Hangar photo clearly shows oil-canning on the patch but does not show rivets or rivet lines on the patch.  It also does not show rivets or rivet lines on the fuselage in areas on either side of the patch where we know there were rivets.  The photo is a good source of information about the oil-canning but provides no information about whether there were rivets on the patch.

•  Ditto for the Darwin Ramp photo. No rivet lines on the patch but no rivet lines on the airplane where we know there are rivet lines. We have known since last December that there is a strong suggestion of the presence of an underlying vertical structural member at Station 207.  The max-res copy photo Jeff took reinforces that impression. We see what may be the same line on artifact 2-2-V-1.
In the false-color image below the ghost of the possible vertical member is apparent.  A scaled representation of 2-2-V-1 is overlaid forward of the patch.  Note that the deformation in the lower left quadrant of the artifact resembles the oil-canning deformation on the patch.  More work with the max-res image we acquired Thursday may confirm or deny the similarity.

•  In going through the files of photos we discovered a photo that we had previously missed while searching through the on-line images.

http://earchives.lib.purdue.edu/cdm/singleitem/collection/earhart/id/787/rec/12

The photo shows the Electra being fueled in Karachi. Roughly the forward third of the patch is visible.  The on-line version of the photo is of insufficient resolution to see rivets or rivet lines but in the max-res copy-photo Jeff took we can see what appear to be at least two rivet lines on the patch. (see false color image attached)  Further processing of the image may reveal more.

None of these images proves anything one way or the other but they support the hypothesis that distinctive features on the artifact are present in historical photos of the patch. 

Greg,
We looked at the print of the AE and FN under the tail photo under magnification.  There's really nothing there.  What you were seeing are apparently artifacts of the scanning process.
« Last Edit: April 24, 2015, 05:20:10 PM by Ric Gillespie »
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Bob Smith

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Re: Patch photos and Purdue visit
« Reply #1 on: April 24, 2015, 06:17:41 PM »

Belly antenna and strut??
Bob S.
 
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Ric Gillespie

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Re: Patch photos and Purdue visit
« Reply #2 on: April 24, 2015, 06:20:22 PM »

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Greg Daspit

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Re: Patch photos and Purdue visit
« Reply #3 on: April 26, 2015, 02:31:00 PM »

•  The hi-res Darwin Hangar photo clearly shows oil-canning on the patch but does not show rivets or rivet lines on the patch.  It also does not show rivets or rivet lines on the fuselage in areas on either side of the patch where we know there were rivets.  The photo is a good source of information about the oil-canning but provides no information about whether there were rivets on the patch.
Regarding the Darwin Hangar photo and oil canning: This may be a similar situation to the Miami Ramp Photo where the crowd being reflected was confused as oil canning. If the patch is still more reflective than the rest of the plane, then what should it be reflecting? Could the patch be reflecting the starboard wing? A reflection of the highlight on the wing could be confused with a highlight at the edge of a dent or oil canning. There is also an area where the patch overlaps two layers that may cause a subtle highlight in another location and may be something that causes it to look like oil canning.
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Ric Gillespie

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Re: Patch photos and Purdue visit
« Reply #4 on: April 26, 2015, 02:45:56 PM »

The big tip-off to the presence of distortion in the patch, whether or not you want to call it oil-canning, is the "bend" in the line of reflected light where it crosses the upper part of the patch (your red arrow).
« Last Edit: April 26, 2015, 02:48:40 PM by Ric Gillespie »
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Greg Daspit

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Re: Patch photos and Purdue visit
« Reply #5 on: April 26, 2015, 04:27:44 PM »

The big tip-off to the presence of distortion in the patch, whether or not you want to call it oil-canning, is the "bend" in the line of reflected light where it crosses the upper part of the patch (your red arrow).
I agree there is a bend there but it could be very subtle bend caused by the patch overlapping the extra height of two layers of skin at that spot.
Look at how wavy the reflected line of light forward of the window is along that same height/horizontal lapping in the fuselage, and consider that in those areas the skin overlaps are probably less severe than at the patch that was applied post production.
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Greg Daspit

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Re: Patch photos and Purdue visit
« Reply #6 on: April 26, 2015, 04:46:28 PM »

I think these two images may show how the patch is still more reflective than the adjacent skin even at Darwin. They are the same picture but one has the contrast adjusted to pick up the reflections on the older (more oxidized) skin better. Toggle back and forth between the two pictures. The reflections that are darker on the patch seem to align with the not-so-dark reflections on the adjacent skin. I don't think it is a shadow because it is not an even line. You should probably download them both so the effect works better.
3971R
 
« Last Edit: April 26, 2015, 04:48:36 PM by Greg Daspit »
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Ric Gillespie

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Re: Patch photos and Purdue visit
« Reply #7 on: April 26, 2015, 04:51:52 PM »

I agree there is a bend there but it could be very subtle bend caused by the patch overlapping the extra height of two layers of skin at that spot.

Take a look at this detail from the Darwin Hangar photos.  Not what I'd call a subtle bend.
I can also see an indication of the vertical line at Station 207.
« Last Edit: April 26, 2015, 04:53:24 PM by Ric Gillespie »
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Ric Gillespie

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Re: Patch photos and Purdue visit
« Reply #8 on: April 26, 2015, 04:55:20 PM »

I think these two images may show how the patch is still more reflective than the adjacent skin even at Darwin.

I have no problem accepting that the patch is still less oxidized that the surrounding original skins.
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Greg Daspit

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Re: Patch photos and Purdue visit
« Reply #9 on: April 26, 2015, 05:44:35 PM »

I agree there is a bend there but it could be very subtle bend caused by the patch overlapping the extra height of two layers of skin at that spot.

Take a look at this detail from the Darwin Hangar photos.  Not what I'd call a subtle bend.
I can also see an indication of the vertical line at Station 207.
When I look at that detail I consider how it relates to the rest of the plane where that reflected light along the fuselage is. It gets very wavy forward of the window.

 I saw that vertical line. It is close to Station 307. If it is the same indentation as on the artifact, how is it showing up in that photo? Same question for the Darwin ramp false color image. It took a long time to see a suggestion of a vertical stiffer in the artifact.  If it is the same as the artifact, then the lighting may be enhancing very minor imperfections and that condition at the corner could be enhanced as well.
3971R
 
« Last Edit: April 26, 2015, 06:12:06 PM by Greg Daspit »
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JNev

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Re: Patch photos and Purdue visit
« Reply #10 on: April 27, 2015, 08:11:13 AM »

I agree there is a bend there but it could be very subtle bend caused by the patch overlapping the extra height of two layers of skin at that spot.

Take a look at this detail from the Darwin Hangar photos.  Not what I'd call a subtle bend.
I can also see an indication of the vertical line at Station 207.

By 'Station 207' you apparently mean 'Station 307', of course, Ric.  Thanks for sharing this.

I too can see the 'vertical line' spoken of at roughly what should be STA 307 - but like you, I'm an amateur at photo analysis and cannot be certain what is creating that image.

If, for argument's sake, that were a vertical line of rivets creating that 'line', then 2-2-V-1 is patently disqualified by visual examination: there are no corresponding rivet holes in the artifact that would match the vertical line you've pointed out. 

Further, there would be no reasonable need of the longitudenal 'stiffener' lines that 2-2-V-1 has been postulated to have had were it the 'patch'.

If, however, those are not rivet heads creating that visible line, then what is creating the image?  Is it perhaps an abrasion, a light scuff mark - a relatively shiny area as grime might have been 'polished' away in an area of contact?  It could be many things other than a vertical member or rivets, I am guessing.  It could perhaps even be related to some physical impact that actually created what may be the rather large 'dent' of our fascination: perhaps a worker bumped the airplane with a ladder or cart or flung a fuel hose onto the side in a clumsy moment of rush, or fell against it while climbing during some ground handling effort, etc.  So many things are possible.  I'm not sure we'll ever know.

But, consider also that it has been previously suggested that the finding of a 'footprint' on 2-2-V-1 of what looks like the presence of an unfastened vertical member roughly near what was postulated to be STA 307 (were the artifact the patch).  That mark was in fact on the exterior air passage surface, were that artifact the 'patch' and aligned as has been conjectured at Wichita, etc.  Could that 'footprint' on 2-2-V-1 actually be 'the line' you see at STA 307? 

That would be intriguing, but the problem with that as I see it is dimensional (annoying, I know) -

A recent dimensional study of 2-2-V-1 (TIGHAR Bulletin #76, pages 12 thru 15 of same - and my thanks to you and Pat for publishing my report) reveals that the 'station' where that footprint appears on 2-2-V-1 is distinctly incongruent with the relative proximity of the forward edge of the artifact.  The forward edge lies too far forward (by about 1.5") to match where STA 307 would be, were the artifact to attach to the Electra as we see the 'patch' lying in various photos, not just the Darwin ramp photo.

Further, although we've previously postulated as to why a vertical member could have been present but not riveted, it actually makes no sense to me from a structural viewpoint that such a thing should have been done: why leave off a few rivets that would take only a very few minutes to install to tie such a member in, which would make it worthwhile, compared to relatively more time to fabricate and fit such a member behind the skin in the first place?

Additionally, were such a member installed in contact with the inner surface, why would there be no corresponding 'footprint' on the inner skin surface?  It has always been an oddity that the 'footprint' existed on the outer surface of 2-2-V-1 only, when considered in terms of whether the artifact was the patch. 

Even had there been an unriveted inner vertical brace and some external force had created a visible outer mark (notwithstanding the dimensional challenge), would we reasonably have no evidence of the member's contact with the inner surface?  Why wouldn't there be creasing evident at the edges of the flange, for instance, or at least some mark similar to what appeared on the outside surface?  There is none on 2-2-V-1.

Accordingly, 2-2-V-1 does not appear to meet the physical window cover criteria in terms of photographic or dimensional aspects, IMO (which is no longer so humble, I admit).  Were a vertical stiffener installed - which of course would be a preferred means of bracing as it would be consistent with the pre-existing structure, then:

- The 'station' is wrong on 2-2-V-1 - the part is too long and would have to extend too far forward on the Electra to match what we see in various photographs of where the forward edge of the window covering actually ends for this 'STA 307 feature' to match up on the artifact.

Further, by the presence of this line on the hangar photo and considering that rivets might be the cause (not clear to me):

- The absence of vertical rivet holes at this location on 2-2-V-1 disqualifies.

- The absence of evidence of a contacting member on the corresponding interior surface of 2-2-V-1 also appears strongly disqualifying.

- The dimensions of vertical mark placement on 2-2-V-1 compared to the forward egde is disqualifying by dimensional analysis.

Additionally, consider -

Were a vertical member installed to back the window cover, why then would the longitudenal bracing suggested by the mid-field rivet holes on 2-2-V-1 even be present?  Further thought on that suggests that to add that bracing would amount to troublesome and gross overkill: again, if the installer had bothered with installing a vertical brace, it would be far easier to merely pick up the vertical member with a few rivets in a vertical row than to even contemplate concocting an odd series of longitudenal light bracing, as the analysis of 2-2-V-1 has suggested to be the case, were it the window covering. 

Even had there been a desire to 'repair' a 'dent', it would be simpler to replace a wounded vertical member - were that the case, and straighten the skin than to add a series of new longitudenal stiffeners.

I wish it were not so -

I readily admit that there's nothing quite like a tantalizing piece of sheetmetal that looks as if it popped right off the hull of one of history's most tantalizing lost airplanes and surfed into our laps on the shore of a desert isle.  But it appears we're reaching too far now - 2-2-V-1 is not the glass slipper in my long studied view, sorry to say: the printed information on the artifact doesn't match era-sensitive examples as known to-date, the metallurgical analysis is problematic in terms of alloy content / era, and the dimensional analysis would have to be quantifiably overcome in any case. 

Is it truly productive to keep after this artifact?
- Jeff Neville

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James G. Stoveken

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Re: Patch photos and Purdue visit
« Reply #11 on: April 27, 2015, 10:02:14 AM »

Have Professor Eager and his MIT colleagues reviewed Jeff Neville's analysis of the patch?  It would be interesting to see if their opinions would be influenced by Jeff's findings.
Jim Stoveken
 
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Greg Daspit

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Re: Patch photos and Purdue visit
« Reply #12 on: April 27, 2015, 11:46:19 AM »

I’m not convinced if 2-2-V-01 fits or not. But I would like to see the investigation continue.

Regarding the possible stiffener at 307.
 If there was a stiffener under this artifact it was not riveted, no matter what plane it was for. It may be something else. I don’t think Ric implied it was riveted by noting a mark on the photo. The marks on the artifact could have been made after detachment. The mark in the photographs may be a highlight on the right side of a ridge and the ridge more aft. I used “close to” for that reason.  I look at the lines on the photographs as questions more than anything that is definite. They may be reflections, or something else.

Regarding the fonts:
 How many of the very limited sample of photographs are even from 1937 and how was it determined when the aluminum was made for that plane in these photos?

Regarding the metal analysis:
The Artifact’s recipe did not match the limited samples of the earlier era’s samples but did not match the limited samples of the later era either.  For example, the artifact has more than twice the percentage of zinc as the later era B-17.  No samples that were definitely from 1937 were tested and that is the year the patch was installed. The Report clearly questions what the recipe was in 1937.  I don’t see how we can make a conclusion to disqualify or qualify the artifact based on that report.


Regarding “Fitment”:
Using the sticky measure tape on the Wichita plane and the steel tape on the artifact (when Ric pressed it down) it fits horizontally with enough room for a gap. How one can tell how big the gap is in photos of the patch is beyond my understanding. I see what I think is a gap close to the bulkhead but it is consistent with how it could fit. Call it "in the ballpark"( See attachment). The Artifact may be slightly bigger if you go by readings from the sticky tape that follows the intermediate dents in the artifact, but not significantly larger and it still fits.  I’m not sure which tape is telling more of the truth but they are different. I don’t know if a sticky tape that follows intermediate dents is correct because a dent can stretch the metal. I preferred to use the tape that was used to press down the artifact and attempt to take out deformities that extend across the entire length of the artifact. I wouldn’t use a method of measurement that followed intermediate dents.(It is splitting hairs so no big deal IMO)
  I have questions about how to align holes of the patch with the coaming holes so close to, or possibly in the bulkhead. You can’t even see the original rivets at the bulkhead from the inside of the Wichita plane. They are blocked from view by the interior sheathing of the bulkhead.  I have questions that an attempt would be made to fit the patch over the exact dimensions of the window coaming. I think it would be safer to make the patch bigger so you don’t end up being short when applying it in the field, especially if formed from top to bottom along a tapered fuselage.  I question if the bracing for the window was used for the patch, especially the upper horizontal one specifically installed for the window that was not original. I still have mostly questions.
I think the investigation should continue but agree that Niku VIII is the priority.
3971R
 
« Last Edit: April 27, 2015, 12:16:30 PM by Greg Daspit »
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JNev

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Re: Patch photos and Purdue visit
« Reply #13 on: April 27, 2015, 12:20:44 PM »

"Ballpark" as an assumption is a big problem in this kind of analysis, Greg.  Accurate measurements can be reliably obtained from the Wichita photo with tapes applied.  Accuracy is also a hallmark of good sheetmetal work, so cutting 'overly long to avoid falling short', etc. isn't the normal case - and visually the patch doesn't measure up to the artifact's dimensions, accordingly, either.

The rivets 'at the bulkhead' don't have anything to do with attachment of the covering - the cover did not reach that far.  Your questions are valid in those terms as I can understand them: the artifact has no evidence of rivet holes that would match the coaming, as it should were it the patch.

As to the fonts, metallurgy, etc. I guess one just has to decide which way those things lean.  No, nothing specific has been shown to define for certain that the fonts cannot have existed in 1937 - but the evidence we do have (and I have looked high and low, personally) is against it.  The metallurgy simply compounds the attending doubts, I'm afraid.

But that is all of course my own judgment.  Yours needs to be your own, and if you see reason to continue the investigation you should, of course.  In the end, I don't see what 2-2-V-1 can do to affirm the Earhart-Niku case, that's all.
- Jeff Neville

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Ric Gillespie

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Re: Patch photos and Purdue visit
« Reply #14 on: April 27, 2015, 12:52:42 PM »

But that is all of course my own judgment.  Yours needs to be your own, and if you see reason to continue the investigation you should, of course.  In the end, I don't see what 2-2-V-1 can do to affirm the Earhart-Niku case, that's all.

Good.  I think we all understand your position.  If you don't mind we'll continue the investigation.
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