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Author Topic: Betty's house  (Read 72618 times)

Monte Chalmers

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Re: Betty's house
« Reply #30 on: July 28, 2012, 03:47:40 PM »

Take another look at the video and stop it at the 54 second point and take a close look at the dial. You will see that this is NOT a shortwave radio

This is not a very important comment, but your link took me to what is supposed to be a Model 1000Z..........and it looks like parts of the dial only lights when the various bands are selected.  I can see what you say at "54" is only the AM band showing.  But back up to about "50".... you can faintly see other bands (area not lighted above the AM band).

P.S.  see pilotart entry "(This "shutter" is why Gary thought that the Stratosphere in his video was the normal broadcast band only.)"  This "shutter" thing has got to be the same thing I'm talking about.  apparently mashed areas behind the dial with dedicated display lighting.

Monte TIGHAR #3597
 
« Last Edit: July 28, 2012, 06:38:29 PM by Monte Chalmers »
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Monte Chalmers

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Re: Betty's house
« Reply #31 on: July 28, 2012, 04:21:32 PM »

all this degrading by comparing an address in 2012 with what that neighborhood would have been like long before the Skyway, US-19 and I-275 were built.  I'm not saying they were in a 'High-Class' area, but I have no doubt that they could have had a Quality Radio
The whole point of the thread is that a Model 1000Z was perhaps not likely based upon what we see in the house.  Not that there is anything wrong with the house.  In fact the number 3 reply by me in this subject was that the house is "average".  Yes, St Petersburg today ia nothing like it would have been in 1937.  Your mention of the Skyway bridge and the roadways, perhaps you know about St Pete.  My memory is limited about the 30s (1935 was my start) - but lots about the 40s.  The business district on Central Avenue started at the bay and ended about 9th Street! (called MLK Blvd now) - Webbs City was on 9th Street. I didn't know about Auburn Street (Betty's 1937 address which is about 2 miles West of 9th Street) until reading about it here.  Her place must have been like going out of town.  :D
Monte TIGHAR #3597
 
« Last Edit: July 28, 2012, 06:41:58 PM by Monte Chalmers »
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Robert Perry

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Re: Betty's house
« Reply #32 on: July 28, 2012, 11:36:20 PM »

First time poster, but I can help with this one I think. It feels rather odd to be retrieving this information on the family of someone still alive, I must admit.

The 1930 US Census shows the family living at 668 41st Ave, St Petersburg and specifies they rent the dwelling for $15 per month (the value of neighbouring homes actually owned by the occupants were around the $3-3.5k mark). Father was working as a meter reader and the family did not own a radio set.


The 1935 Florida State Census shows them living at 2027 Auburn and specifies they rent the property, although it does not show what price they pay. The father is listed now as a 'Book-keeper' and his degree of education is listed as 'high' (presumably high school).

The neighbour in 1935 was a Henry F. Clanton, a 30 year old engineer, with a wife and two children. This is quite possibly the neighbour Mr. Klenck allegedly ran next door to see regarding the radio broadcasts.


The 1940 US Census shows them owning the house at 1815 19th South, value $3500. Mr. Klenck is working 42 hours a week as a "book-keeper - electric power" and his income for 1939 was $1700.

Hope this helps!
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pilotart

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Re: Betty's house
« Reply #33 on: July 29, 2012, 02:04:58 AM »

Thank you Robert and to put those numbers in perspective:
http://www.thepeoplehistory.com/1930s.html
Quote
In 1930 the average income per year was $1,970.00 and by 1939 was $1,730.00
In 1930 average new house cost $7,145.00 and by 1939 was $3,800.00
Incomes in Florida are usually below the national average; it's called "paying for the sunshine"  :)

And for Monte,

My earliest recall was visiting a family just a little bit west of there in 1960, where I-275 is now, they were not poor by any means.  I just don't think it is reasonable to judge the historic 'wealth' of a neighborhood by what it has become 75 years later, especially where you have suffered the disruption of those highway systems and corridors mentioned...
Art Johnson
 
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Monte Chalmers

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Re: Betty's house
« Reply #34 on: July 29, 2012, 04:35:04 AM »

Great info, Robert. 
I thought that they might be renting.  One question we were wondering: any brothers or sisters?
Monte TIGHAR #3597
 
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Robert Perry

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Re: Betty's house
« Reply #35 on: July 29, 2012, 05:01:01 AM »

Great info, Robert. 
I thought that they might be renting.  One question we were wondering: any brothers or sisters?

Hi Monte,

Yes, there was one sister, who would have been 12 in 1937. I'm reluctant to go too far in revealing personal info about people still alive, even though the info. is publicly available. I'll just say she died in 1996, was married (husband died 2002) and had two children, both of whom are also deceased. There are surviving grandchildren.


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John Kada

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Re: Betty's house
« Reply #36 on: July 29, 2012, 10:47:00 PM »

A thought about the honor of Betty and her family: I personally think Betty and her family deserve a bit of respect about their lives past (and she's still with us I believe) regardless of what someone thinks of the theory.  This impeachment commentary often reaches a bit too far to me in this place - I don't see it as warranted, no matter what one thinks of Brandenburg's or anyone else's odds for such a transmission.

Can you be specific, i.e. quote a disrespectful remark made about the Klencks in this discussion?

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pilotart

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Re: Betty's house
« Reply #37 on: July 30, 2012, 12:44:00 AM »

From the first post, the theme of this thread has centered on the idea that because of where the Klenck family lived (supported by 2012 'zillow' values transposed back 75 years) that they could not possibly have afforded a radio capable of receiving Amelia and Fred's distress call.

How would you feel if you saw this posted on the internet about your parents?
Quote
"...Zillow has it appraised at about the same value. That is why Ma Klenck was so mad at Pa Klenck for blowing their life savings on a stupid radio because she wanted to get a better house with that money.  ..."

"...Yep, he traded his first born son for it (somebody should ask Betty if she remembers her older brother suddenly disappearing around this time)   And there is a big difference between twenty-five cents worth of wire strung across the back of his yard and a radio that cost one-third the price of his house. That wire most likely was connected to a $47.00 common radio. And while we are looking for the receipt for Mr. Klenck's radio, how about Ric coming up with some documentation for his assertion that his employer bought twelve thousand dollar (2012 dollars) radios and appliances for its employees."

"...I think is was quite clever of Ric to come up with his story, ..."      etc. etc.
There is an earlier thread centered on the idea that Betty fabricated her notebook to profit on the Amelia tragedy.  ???

If I were Dana Rudolph, I doubt that I would mention anything about hearing a distress call. :-X
Art Johnson
 
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Malcolm McKay

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Re: Betty's house
« Reply #38 on: July 30, 2012, 01:02:10 AM »

There is an earlier thread centered on the idea that Betty fabricated her notebook to profit on the Amelia tragedy. 

Well so? these things happen and accordingly it is necessary to test everything. I have never thought that the appearance of trustworthiness was a substitute for being trustworthy, well not since I discovered that my parents had lied about Father Christmas. Due diligence is a reasonable approach to every issue where a person's word is influencing the way things are being done. The exact type of radio involved is crucial and if some confusion exists that may indicate that the received broadcast was either a real distress call, a misunderstanding based on a partly heard radio news reenactment or a deliberate hoax then it needs to be resolved. Fred Goerner who was not an idiot discounted the notebook when it was offered to him. 
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John Kada

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Re: Betty's house
« Reply #39 on: July 30, 2012, 01:17:05 AM »



How would you feel if you saw this posted on the internet about your parents?
Quote
"...Zillow has it appraised at about the same value. That is why Ma Klenck was so mad at Pa Klenck for blowing their life savings on a stupid radio because she wanted to get a better house with that money.  ..."

"...Yep, he traded his first born son for it (somebody should ask Betty if she remembers her older brother suddenly disappearing around this time)   And there is a big difference between twenty-five cents worth of wire strung across the back of his yard and a radio that cost one-third the price of his house. That wire most likely was connected to a $47.00 common radio. And while we are looking for the receipt for Mr. Klenck's radio, how about Ric coming up with some documentation for his assertion that his employer bought twelve thousand dollar (2012 dollars) radios and appliances for its employees."


"...I think is was quite clever of Ric to come up with his story, ..."      etc. etc.
There is an earlier thread centered on the idea that Betty fabricated her notebook to profit on the Amelia tragedy.  ???

If I were Dana Rudolph, I doubt that I would mention anything about hearing a distress call. :-X


Art,

-It seems rather obvious to me that the first two quotes you cite from Gary are humorous remarks directed towards other Tighar members, not disparaging remarks directed at the Klencks.

-The third remark you cite from Gary refers to Ric, so how does it disparage the Klencks?

-The remarks on earlier threads you mention are not part of this discussion, i.e., this thread.

I think you are over reacting regarding alleged disrespect to the Klencks. In an earlier post on this thread you suggested that there were in fact more affordable radios with the capability to make Betty's 'Miraculous Reception'. I haven't seen Gary or anyone else disagree with you on that point.

 
« Last Edit: July 30, 2012, 01:23:30 AM by John Kada »
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pilotart

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Re: Betty's house
« Reply #40 on: July 30, 2012, 01:57:22 AM »

John,

I (and others) have great respect for Gary LaPook and appreciate his many very knowledgeable and well written posts. And I can well understand that with the solid opinion he has about what happened to that Lockheed, he can 'buy' no thought of a genuine post-loss radio message from the lost fliers.

I do believe that has prompted him to go overboard in disrespecting Betty (and then her family) who may now regret ever talking to Ric.

It was a similar dis-respect shown Dana by our government in the early days of July 1937 and that was possibly truly tragic.

I don't think I was over reacting by posting one reply referencing statements that were not true.

I think that that other thread about Betty's possible 'fabrication' is certainly pertinent to this subject.  I had one post there describing a 'miracle' radio reception more rare than Betty's.  I did not save the QSL and if you looked up my address on Zillow (from fifty years ago), you would see that it is now referred to as "Crime Manor".  It would not make me feel good if it was said that I 'fabricated' the story or must be a criminal from my address...
Art Johnson
 
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Gary LaPook

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Re: Betty's house
« Reply #41 on: July 30, 2012, 02:23:43 AM »

John,

I (and others) have great respect for Gary LaPook and appreciate his many very knowledgeable and well written posts. And I can well understand that with the solid opinion he has about what happened to that Lockheed, he can 'buy' no thought of a genuine post-loss radio message from the lost fliers.

I do believe that has prompted him to go overboard in disrespecting Betty (and then her family) who may now regret ever talking to Ric.

It was a similar dis-respect shown Dana by our government in the early days of July 1937 and that was possibly truly tragic.

I don't think I was over reacting by posting one reply referencing statements that were not true.

I think that that other thread about Betty's possible 'fabrication' is certainly pertinent to this subject.  I had one post there describing a 'miracle' radio reception more rare than Betty's.  I did not save the QSL and if you looked up my address on Zillow (from fifty years ago), you would see that it is now referred to as "Crime Manor".  It would not make me feel good if it was said that I 'fabricated' the story or must be a criminal from my address...
As long as you were quoting me, why did you choose to leave out these quotes:

"I never said that she "invented" anything. I believe that she heard several different commercial broadcasts as the various signals faded in and out and she retuned her radio and her radio drifted in frequency. One of these broadcasts contained the words "Amelial Earhart" and Betty just wrote down what she was hearing, mixing all of the words from the different broadcasts in her notebook."



"I certainly do not think she is "malevolent."
In case you have misread what I have said in the past, here is a recap. I have said that Betty did not fabricate that notebook, I believe that she wrote down what she heard coming out of her radio and that what she stated when interviewed is what she remembered and believed was the truth. Is that clear?


Now to get to the point I have been trying to make. There is nothing in the original notes on the Earhart pages in her notebook saying that she was listening on shortwave and no mention of way up on the shortwave tuning dial around 25,000 kcs. So that part of the story is based on her memory when interviewed 60 years later, none of us have perfect memories. And we don't know what questions were asked of her and this is the same problem with the Japanese capture eyewitnesses."

"It is also possible that Betty simply mistook the photo of the Stratosphere shown to her by TIGHAR for another, less expensive and less capable, Zenith radio. Zenith made over 40 models with prices from $20.00 to $750.00 and they incorporated similar visual features.

'In 1936, Zenith would take key features from the 1000Z and transfer them to their newest line of radios. The standout feature used on most of Zenith's 1936 radios was the large, easy to read, black 'Magnavision" dial.'"

(And I used the terms "Ma" and "Pa" for their humor value, perhaps you remember with affection, as I do, "Ma and Pa Kettle" from that era.)
gl
« Last Edit: July 30, 2012, 02:49:40 AM by Gary LaPook »
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pilotart

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Re: Betty's house
« Reply #42 on: July 30, 2012, 02:57:25 PM »

Gary,

Thank you for your reply to my post. 

I did not quote your posts from Re: Re: Betty's Notebook - ethics of acceptance because John's question was specific to this thread and although I read that thread as an unwarranted attack on Betty, I would not consider your posts in that thread "overboard" compared to this thread that you started.  I had been pleased to see you state that you did not consider Betty to be "malevolent".

I'm only 69 so I did not relate your admittedly humorous post to "Ma and Pa Kettle" ;D.  There is really nothing that you wrote that I found "overboard" but rather your theme in this thread to establish that Betty could not possibly listened to a shortwave message in 1937 because her family lived in a location that is today considered a poverty area.  I do not consider it valid evidence to link the Klenck home of 1937 with what that address implies today.

As for TIGHAR's methodology in validating Betty's notebook, I would refer readers to Ric's posts (Something New)  starting at 28 Sept 2000 and continuing through October and beyond as well as the other papers posted on this site.  (Just click a highlighted word to open a link and use 'find' for the third "Betty" to see the post.)

The best 'read' would be Chapter Seventeen of Finding Amelia which could be found at your local library.

I do believe Betty was truthful to Ric and her photo of her FIN's Zenith establishes the brand.  Her recall of the 'alcove' limits the model to a Stratosphere as Zenith patented that Console.  Some of their lower priced radios did have 'Big Black Dials' but not that distinctive alcove. 

As far as Kenneth Klenck possibly owning a genuine Zenith Stratosphere 1000Z I have pointed out that his cost would have been far less than $750.  That "twenty-five cents worth of wire..." was sold by Zenith for $5.00 and Kenneth may have bought it for less then $0.25 considering his connection.

Eric, NAS North Island, San Diego's mention of a Scott caught my eye because a Scott would outperform the Zenith.

It was popular in those days to purchase a top-line Scott chassis at comparatively low cost (under $200) and install it in a Console that had its chassis outmoded or failed, but Betty's recall of that Console Alcove really does point to the Zenith.

Your explanation of her creating her notebook from a compilation of Commercial Radio Broadcasts and her imagination does not hold water for me at all, unless you think that her Dad, Mom and neighbors Russ & Virgie Rhodes were also fooled by what she was hearing and if it was 'Short-Wave'.

If your theory of rejection rests on Bob Brandenburg's research, let me point out that 24.84 MhZ was not his only possibility, just the best odds.  Recall that I have first-hand experience of a Radio 'Miracle' rarer than Betty's.

I appreciate your sharing with us so many fascinating stories of your experiences and if you could prove that they did 'splash' to instant death, that would be a more comfortable thought for sure.  I just cannot just put this mystery to bed for the comfortable thought of a preferable ending.

I have great respect for the work that TIGHAR has done and their pile of clues definitely point to Gardner...  I will keep an open mind on the subject and continue to read your well researched and knowledgeable postings and look at whatever Nauticos comes up with as well.  I will even consider Malcom's  New Britain theory, but that one really needs proof of its 'smoking-gun' for sure.
Art Johnson
 
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C.W. Herndon

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Re: Betty's house
« Reply #43 on: July 30, 2012, 03:28:26 PM »

Alright all of you radio experts, I have seen all kinds of charts and computations about why Betty could not have received AE's transmissions on 3105 or 6210kHz. I do not claim to know a lot about radios but I have a question. Since AE's transmitter could also transmit on 500kc and it was, after all, the maritime emergency frequency, what would have happened if she were sometimes transmitting on 500kc?
Woody (former 3316R)
"the watcher"
 
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Monte Chalmers

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Re: Betty's house
« Reply #44 on: July 30, 2012, 04:15:46 PM »

It seems that almost everyone is in agreement that Betty was truthful - even if  some of the facts don't add up.  And some of the documentation is not correct.  I stand by my "miracle" concept which easily fits no matter what.  Anyway, Betty's notebook was just a little something added in support the ongoing TIGHAR investigation.  Frankly,  I don't see where this thread can go further.  I apologize if anyone thought any of my comments unfounded or disrespectful.
Monte TIGHAR #3597
 
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