Advanced search  
Pages: 1 2 [3] 4 5   Go Down

Author Topic: Why 10AM from Lae?  (Read 67086 times)

h.a.c. van asten

  • T4
  • ****
  • Posts: 322
Re: Why 10AM from Lae?
« Reply #30 on: June 03, 2011, 02:00:57 PM »

Mr. Lapook,

You wrote here that computations I made ("invented") were generally beyond knowledge of of the era sea/air navigators. Certain calculations however , were for them as old as the hills , like computing the LHA (always of the true sun) and the GHA of a heavenly body. Strictly within these limits of skill we (and any navigator henceforth) can establish sunrise time , no N.A.listing ,no rounding , no formulae , in the roads of Howland as described in EJN-2008 / 2011 :

GHA @ 159-07-E                       071545 GAT     288-56-18
GHA @ 178-47-W      U.L.sun horizon       add      87-45-40
                                                                   ________
                                                                   201-10-38
                                           subtract from      360-00-00
                                                                   ________
In orbit travel of true sun                                 158-49-22

Divide by  15 deg / hr                                     10h35m17s

Add : GAT  of sunset  @ Nukumanu Fix     Add        7-15-45
                                                                    _______
GAT                                U.L. sun in horizon      17-51-02

Add   03m50s                      Equation of Time          03-50
                                                                    _______

GMT of sunrise U.L.                                           17-54-53
                                                                    =======

The sunset fix appears in detail in EJN-2011 , the sunset fix is recomputed  , in somewhat other terms as above , in EJN-2008.





 
                                                                   

Logged

h.a.c. van asten

  • T4
  • ****
  • Posts: 322
Re: Why 10AM from Lae?
« Reply #31 on: June 03, 2011, 03:01:30 PM »

G.Lpk. Last sentence : ..the sunrise fix is recomputed ..





Logged

Monty Fowler

  • T5
  • *****
  • Posts: 1078
  • "The real answer is always the right answer."
Re: Why 10AM from Lae?
« Reply #32 on: June 03, 2011, 04:01:59 PM »

Mr. Van Asten, I'm thinking it's about time you broke out the popcorn and put the Ameila DVD into your player and just kicked back for awhile ... because, to me, the nits you're picking at, re-picking, kicking, stomping on and otherwise beating to death have gotten way, way less entertaining.

My 2 cents.
Ex-TIGHAR member No. 2189 E C R SP, 1998-2016
 
Logged

Gary LaPook

  • T5
  • *****
  • Posts: 1624
Re: Why 10AM from Lae?
« Reply #33 on: June 03, 2011, 07:05:46 PM »

Mr. Lapook,

You wrote here that computations I made ("invented") were generally beyond knowledge of of the era sea/air navigators. Certain calculations however , were for them as old as the hills , like computing the LHA (always of the true sun) and the GHA of a heavenly body. Strictly within these limits of skill we (and any navigator henceforth) can establish sunrise time , no N.A.listing ,no rounding , no formulae , in the roads of Howland as described in EJN-2008 / 2011 :

GHA @ 159-07-E                       071545 GAT     288-56-18
GHA @ 178-47-W      U.L.sun horizon       add      87-45-40
                                                                   ________
                                                                   201-10-38
                                           subtract from      360-00-00
                                                                   ________
In orbit travel of true sun                                 158-49-22

Divide by  15 deg / hr                                     10h35m17s

Add : GAT  of sunset  @ Nukumanu Fix     Add        7-15-45
                                                                    _______
GAT                                U.L. sun in horizon      17-51-02

Add   03m50s                      Equation of Time          03-50
                                                                    _______

GMT of sunrise U.L.                                           17-54-53
                                                                    =======

The sunset fix appears in detail in EJN-2011 , the sunset fix is recomputed  , in somewhat other terms as above , in EJN-2008.





 
                                                                   



----------------------------------------------------

That's nice.

I guess that I should be impressed by your mathematical abilities except that in your two published papers you said that Noonan would have calculated the times of sunrise and sunset by the much simpler method of interpolation of the times in the Nautical Almanac sunrise/sunset tables. You have now had to invent this new, complicated method of computation after I demonstrated to you that your interpolation of the sunrise table method (and you were sure of that one and resisted for some time) doesn't work. I have over 40 editions of the American Practical Navigator, going all the way back to the first edition written by Bowditch in 1802. I scanned and sent to you excerpts from the 1863, 1888 and 1914 editions as examples showing that none of them show your sunset/sunrise method for finding longitude. I have reviewed all of my editions (I am not going to scan in any more of them) and, you'll have to take my word for this, none of them contain your sunrise/sunset method for determination of longitude or your newly invented way for calculating that time. They do contain other methods for determining longitude, time sights, lunar distances, eclipses of Jupiter's moons, lunar eclipses, charts of magnetic variation, etc., the list seems pretty complete so I am surprised I found no mention of your method that you claim was standard and known to all navigators. The American Practical Navigator has been the standard navigation reference book for American navigators since 1802. Noonan was an American navigator so we can expect that he would have been knowledgeable of it content. But, by the time he was practicing navigation, all of the longitude methods that I just mentioned  had become archaic and were no longer in use, having been replaced by the universal use of the LOP (Sumner line) so he would not even have used the time sight, which was the last method of longitude determination deleted from the American Practical Navigator.

In the past I have asked you to provide the books that you claim contain your methods and you have refused to do so, I have shown you mine but you haven't shown me yours. So, I am not going to continue this conversation with you until you do.

Gary LaPook
Logged

Ric Gillespie

  • Executive Director
  • Administrator
  • *
  • Posts: 5445
  • "Do not try. Do or do not. There is no try" Yoda
Re: Why 10AM from Lae?
« Reply #34 on: June 03, 2011, 07:45:49 PM »

I'm thinking it's about time you broke out the popcorn and put the Ameila DVD into your player and just kicked back for awhile ...

I don't think Mr. van Asten has committed any offense that deserves being condemned to sit through that film.
Logged

Hilary Christine Olson

  • TIGHAR member
  • *
  • Posts: 38
  • My Passion
Re: Why 10AM from Lae?
« Reply #35 on: June 03, 2011, 10:01:49 PM »

Actually Gary has earned respect He now has a full name not an abbreviated form. I have been quite reluctant to post as my first and last initials can imply a tag I only like in triplicate at Xmas !
Ho Ho Ho ! ;)
HCO
 
Logged

h.a.c. van asten

  • T4
  • ****
  • Posts: 322
Re: Why 10AM from Lae?
« Reply #36 on: June 03, 2011, 10:39:10 PM »

G.Lapk. As I told you , as soon as I am back home , I will go over the nav literature I have , I cannot have invented any nav theory or practice myself : when I started research in 1988 I knew zero on the subject.
Logged

h.a.c. van asten

  • T4
  • ****
  • Posts: 322
Re: Why 10AM from Lae?
« Reply #37 on: June 03, 2011, 11:06:20 PM »

G.Lpk. There is no reason to be impressed by anything mathematic since the GHA/LHA listing is arithmetical ; may it be that time sight , or longitude by chronometer do not have , or no longer possess a paragraph in American Practical Navigator , that does not mean that the technique not existed resp. was dispersed among navigators circles , might it be as an emergency measure.
Logged

h.a.c. van asten

  • T4
  • ****
  • Posts: 322
Re: Why 10AM from Lae?
« Reply #38 on: June 03, 2011, 11:47:31 PM »

G.Lapk. It may be so that interpolation by N.A. (or other) listing of sunrise time gave the exact (175453 GMT) outcome , accidentally , as compared with the formular result . If it so happened o/b of A/c the coincidence simply took place. It has no influence on any outcome of theory : the sunrise U.L. time is exact , only : if instead of using the bubble sextant @ sunset , the marine sextant was used , the navigator observed the visible sun of 175103 GMT , not the one of 175453 GMT for which the watch time was shifted to GMT 175843 . The navigation error (as of theory) is completely independent of time and position of A/c @ sunrise.
Logged

Monty Fowler

  • T5
  • *****
  • Posts: 1078
  • "The real answer is always the right answer."
Re: Why 10AM from Lae?
« Reply #39 on: June 04, 2011, 08:42:33 AM »

Mr. Van Asten - with all due respect - you have no idea, nor does anyone else, which sextant Fred Noonan used to take which sight, and when. You weren't there. The only two people who were are dead.  

Therefore, any theory constructed on the assumption of which sextant was used, introducing or not introducing an error, is, in the simplest and most basic of engineering terms, a WAG*.

My polite 2 cents.

P.S. to Ric - Amelia wasn't that bad ... if you were willing to, ummmm, suspend belief and not get hung up about things like facts for a couple of hours.  ;D




P.P.S - *WAG - wild-assed guess. And yes, I have seen it in official memos *laughs*
Ex-TIGHAR member No. 2189 E C R SP, 1998-2016
 
« Last Edit: June 04, 2011, 08:54:52 AM by Monty Fowler »
Logged

h.a.c. van asten

  • T4
  • ****
  • Posts: 322
Re: Why 10AM from Lae?
« Reply #40 on: June 05, 2011, 12:22:50 AM »

Mt.Fwr . I suppose you were on Gardner when the aircraft landed there after a 200 mls southwards navigation fault of which you have documents ?  Any theory developed must be first ,that is on short term , be consistent : not any flaw of computation must be present and there is no contradiction with logic. The  relevancy (does it match things that happened) is of second line importance and dependend of further research. If this rule (consistency-relevancy) is trespassed you will always see that opponents try ,with many words , undermine the statements of theory , and when not succesful , they turn vexed and end with the clincher "pure speculation" . For complex incidents like Earhart´s , it´s background containing mathematical implications ,any theory without quantitative outcomes is useless.
Logged

Martin X. Moleski, SJ

  • Administrator
  • *
  • Posts: 2934
Re: Why 10AM from Lae?
« Reply #41 on: June 05, 2011, 05:45:29 AM »

... any theory without quantitative outcomes is useless.

Please note well that the statement quoted above is a theory without any quantitative outcomes.

It is a pure, non-mathematical, philosophical assertion that does not meet the standard set in it.

It is therefore, in its own terms, "useless."

One of the fundamental laws of computation is "Garbage in, garbage out."

It certainly seems to me that your computations begin with a whole host of assumptions that are not self-evident and that are not derived from self-evident truths.  If your premises are correct, then your conclusions ("quantitative outcomes") should be correct.

I doubt that your premises are correct.  Strict calculations based on nonsense are nonsense.
LTM,

           Marty
           TIGHAR #2359A
 
Logged

Ric Gillespie

  • Executive Director
  • Administrator
  • *
  • Posts: 5445
  • "Do not try. Do or do not. There is no try" Yoda
Re: Why 10AM from Lae?
« Reply #42 on: June 05, 2011, 08:36:13 AM »

Strict calculations based on nonsense are nonsense.

And theories that can't be tested are nothing more than intellectual masturbation.
Logged

Martin X. Moleski, SJ

  • Administrator
  • *
  • Posts: 2934
Re: Why 10AM from Lae?
« Reply #43 on: June 05, 2011, 09:32:13 AM »

Strict calculations based on nonsense are nonsense.

And theories that can't be tested are nothing more than intellectual masturbation.

And that line is a theory that can't be tested, so ...   ;)
LTM,

           Marty
           TIGHAR #2359A
 
Logged

Ric Gillespie

  • Executive Director
  • Administrator
  • *
  • Posts: 5445
  • "Do not try. Do or do not. There is no try" Yoda
Re: Why 10AM from Lae?
« Reply #44 on: June 05, 2011, 10:45:52 AM »

And that line is a theory that can't be tested, so ...

...contributors to this thread are in danger of going blind?
Logged
Pages: 1 2 [3] 4 5   Go Up
 

Copyright 2018 by TIGHAR, a non-profit foundation. No portion of the TIGHAR Website may be reproduced by xerographic, photographic, digital or any other means for any purpose. No portion of the TIGHAR Website may be stored in a retrieval system, copied, transmitted or transferred in any form or by any means, whether electronic, mechanical, digital, photographic, magnetic or otherwise, for any purpose without the express, written permission of TIGHAR. All rights reserved.

Contact us at: info@tighar.org • Phone: 610-467-1937 • Membership formwebmaster@tighar.org

Powered by MySQL SMF 2.0.15 | SMF © 2017, Simple Machines Powered by PHP