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Author Topic: Dr. Berry's Freckle Cream  (Read 415471 times)

Joe Cerniglia

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Re: Dr. Berry's Freckle Cream
« Reply #390 on: October 19, 2012, 05:17:11 PM »

Thanks everyone for the additional comments this week on artifact 2-8-s-2a.  I'm attaching a document I've been working on diligently this week to try to address some of the questions that have arisen on this topic, using the input I've received from chemist Greg George, bottle expert Bill Lockhart, Forum members Jeff Carter, and Mark Pearce, and others, along with a list of pertinent questions submitted by David Burrell, for which Greg and I have submitted answers.  We think the questions are ones with which anyone who studies the research material and lab reports on 2-8-s-2a will eventually grapple.  Our answers are intended to make that process simpler. 

This document is a draft only, submitted for others' corrections and adjustments.  We hope it might generate some thoughtful discussion. I have some photos to submit as well that are meant to accompany the document, which I will try to submit in subsequent posts, as size requirements allow.

Thank you.

Joe Cerniglia
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Joe Cerniglia

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Re: Dr. Berry's Freckle Cream
« Reply #391 on: October 20, 2012, 06:21:49 AM »

Photo, Comparison, Skat base and artifact 2-8-s-2a base
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Randy Conrad

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Re: Dr. Berry's Freckle Cream
« Reply #392 on: October 20, 2012, 08:40:16 PM »

Okay! Now that we got this working...Anyway, here are a few pics I took off several journals I was looking at the other night on C.H. Berry Company. As it turns out I was dumbfounded to learn that the man I thought invented this freckle ointment, was not Dr. C.H. Berry but W.B. Forsyth. As shown. W.B. Forsyth invented Kremola in 1905 and sometime around 1906 must have invented Freckle Ointment. At this time, he became owner and President of C.H. Berry Company. I was also amazed to learn that his wife was indeed a doctor, and I wonder now, how much of an impact she might have had on these products.
« Last Edit: October 20, 2012, 08:49:09 PM by Randy Conrad »
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Randy Conrad

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Re: Dr. Berry's Freckle Cream
« Reply #393 on: October 20, 2012, 08:54:41 PM »

Here are a few more pics!
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Randy Conrad

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Re: Dr. Berry's Freckle Cream
« Reply #394 on: October 20, 2012, 09:00:16 PM »

One more set! THanks!!!
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Alan Harris

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Re: Dr. Berry's Freckle Cream
« Reply #395 on: October 20, 2012, 10:37:39 PM »

As it turns out I was dumbfounded to learn that the man I thought invented this freckle ointment, was not Dr. C.H. Berry but W.B. Forsyth. As shown. W.B. Forsyth invented Kremola in 1905 and sometime around 1906 must have invented Freckle Ointment.

Randy, as you seem to enjoy these historical curiosities, you might also like to know there was an Ella R. Berry (a lady) that sold cosmetics and perfumes from the turn of the century into the 20's and 30's.  Based in St. Louis, she offered, yes, wait for it . . . "Berry's Freckle Cream", with the claim: "The Original (first sold in 1888)".  I have never seen a really good photo of an E.R. Berry jar or box, but in sketches the box appears similar to C.H. Berry's.  The company name was Ella R. Berry Pharmacal Co., later changed to Ella R. Berry Chemical Co.

Ella also marketed a line of cosmetics under the name "The Beautiola Company", and the original product in that line, called simply Beautiola, was also a freckle cream.

If you squint your eyes, this page from 1912 has separate entries for the Beautiola and E. R. Berry companies, in the right-hand column, one near the top and the other at the bottom of the page.  Note they have exactly the same address in St. Louis.
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Joe Cerniglia

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Re: Dr. Berry's Freckle Cream
« Reply #396 on: October 31, 2012, 06:03:10 PM »


Randy, as you seem to enjoy these historical curiosities, you might also like to know there was an Ella R. Berry (a lady) that sold cosmetics and perfumes from the turn of the century into the 20's and 30's. 

This thread made mention of Ella Berry back on page 1, two years ago.

I have been unable to find any mention of this company later than the 1920 edition of Meyer Brothers Druggist. If you've got something later, I would be interested.  The problem is, as you state, we have no photos or pictures of the actual containers Ella Berry Chemical used.  A search on the word "freckle" in this periodical will show just how common these freckle removers were.

Looking over the posts of the past year, I notice an impression seems to have taken root that advertisements for C.H. Berry's Freckle Ointment were scarce in the U.S.  I conducted a research survey of all of the editions of the Sears Roebuck Catalog from 1896 to 1993.  In the course of this work, I observed that these jars were for sale in the Catalog from 1908 to 1933.  While it is true the ads can be somewhat hard to find today, my survey shows they were quite common during this time period.

I thought it might be a good time to bring out the database that was the product of my research work in 2011.  I call it the "Sears Catalog Ointment Jars Database."  A few bullet points stand out from the data:
* The date between the "first use" date claimed on the H over A patent for Hazel-Atlas was 1923. The last date one of these jars can be spotted in the Catalog is 1933.
* C.H. Berry Freckle Ointment has the most appearances in the Sears Catalog, 40
* No C.H. Berry products appear in the Catalog from 1913 to 1926.

Note that the database only includes products that pictured at least one jar whose appearance matches that of 2-9-s-1, the artifact removed from the Seven Site in 2010.  One of the products, Kremola, was never pictured in the jar. However, I included Kremola because it seemed to mark the product to which the Freckle Ointment later transitioned.  Kremola was, to my knowledge, only sold in flat round tins. Note as well that the numbers listed in the cells are page numbers from the actual catalogs.  I'd be interested in your opinions and interpretations of this data.

Joe Cerniglia
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tom howard

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Re: Dr. Berry's Freckle Cream
« Reply #397 on: November 02, 2012, 11:45:48 AM »

Joe thank you for the database and your articles, and excellent time consuming research.
My own opinion is that neither the "freckle cream" jar or the "campagna bottom" is worthy of an association with Earhart. Reading all 31 pages of this thread and all the reports has taken much time, but what is clear from all the input and hard research-

1. No clear jar of the freckle cream type has been located. We dont have one. Alan Harris looks like he and others tried hard to find one. The evidence from the manuals he produced saying this jar was only available in Opal is good evidence. So even if it was Dr.Berrys it looks like Alan Harris and Dave Burrell posted it was older than the 1930's. So if she was carrying it then it was very old.
I have a hard time picking up items from the pre 1930's and assigning them weight as evidence. First it has to be the right decade, then proceed from there, the freckle cream for me just is not evidence at this point.

2.The campana balm at least appears to not have the same dating issues. I can see from the research that this is "possibly" a womans lotion bottle. Mark Pierce found numerous advertisements in this thread showing Campana was NOT gender specific at all. Plus, after looking at 3 different laboratory reports over a five year period, I still see no confirmation it is even campana balm.For years this looks like it was called the "lanolin" bottle. It may have been best to stick with that.
Starting with the first lab report in 2007 there was lanolin and seed oil identified.
http://tighar.org/Projects/Earhart/Archives/Expeditions/NikuV/Analysis_and_Reports/Bottle/NikuVanalysisbottle.html

Then it was sent to another lab, EAG labs, in 2011 for more research based on some smudges that Dr.Mass the first scientist did not deem important the first time around. Clearly from Dr.Mass' report the first time she found the lanolin and worm residue as being most likely the only residue. This overall five year process is best summarized in your original Notion of a lotion article.
http://tighar.org/Projects/Earhart/Archives/Research/Bulletins/62_LotionBottle/62_LotionBottle.htm

Lab two, Evans lab, tested actual campagna balm samples against the artifact. On pages 36-39 of the EAG report those graphs of the artifact don't match for Camapana. Despite the pronoucements of a consulting scientist, Greg George, the graphs don't lie.
We can speculate till the cows come home about contamination and degradation to try to make this artifact fit a campagna bottle.
The plain fact is the white residue found on the artifact does not match Campagna balm.

EAG labs did find Tragacanth gum they believed, a component of Campana based on secondary smudges on the artifact.

However while Campana had Tragacanth gum by 1957 at least, FTIR cannot differentiate between gums. Dr. Mass said that in her third and final round of testing to try to confirm what the second lab produced.
Quote-
"Figure 7, shown below, reveals a favorable comparison between gum Arabic and the
reddish residue in the Kiribati bottle. However, FTIR is insufficient to distinguish
between different types of plant gums, and gas chromatography-mass spectrometry is
necessary to definitively distinguish between gum tragacanth and gum Arabic." end quote

All of Dr. Mass's final conclusions and reports are in an embedded PDF in the link on your notion to a lotion bottle.
http://tighar.org/Projects/Earhart/Archives/Research/Bulletins/62_LotionBottle/62_LotionBottle.htm

She seems quite clear on that. She was brought in for a third time to resolve the gum issues found at Evans lab.


So while in your question and answers to Dave Burrell and scientist Greg George resolve some issues, the basic problem remains. You have campagna balm examples, and per the graphs at EAG labs they dont match the white flakes found on the artifact. So the artifact bottom is Not a Campagna bottle.

Despite Greg George saying he feels the skat insect bottle will not match,  due to the primary ingredients, and "long chain carbons", ect., I would test it, At least the bottle is same size and same markings.
The famous Freckle cream jar, I would forget about until you find a clear one from the same decade that does match. That connection is even more tenuous than the Campagna. At least Amelia may have carried a time period lanolin hand cream. (Not Campagna though)

Or just give up on both these bottles completely. That would probably be wise in the big picture. In researching these artifacts, I found a quote in June 2010 from ric, in the forum, and Michael Hall was on a thread called "helping to understand"
Ric said "Any artifact, taken by itself, can be explained away if you postulate an unusual undocumented event (i.e. a compact carried as a memento), but when you find yourself having to do that over and over when there is a single hypothetical event (i.e. an American female castway) into which everything fits, the maintenance of skepticism begins to appear more and more desperate." end quote
 
I think the reverse of Rics quote can also be true.  It can be desperate as well to add a lot of meaningless clutter together and produce a pile and say "here look, can this all be coincidence?"

For the bottles and Jar, yes they are just coincidence.
There are too many hoops to jump through to make them fit. They can be just coincidence and clutter.
I would put a lid on the Jars.



« Last Edit: November 02, 2012, 12:08:40 PM by tom howard »
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Ric Gillespie

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Re: Dr. Berry's Freckle Cream
« Reply #398 on: November 02, 2012, 12:04:57 PM »

I think the reverse of Rics quote can also be true.  It can be desperate as well to add a lot of meaningless clutter together and produce a pile and say "here look, can this all be coincidence?"
For the bottles and Jar, yes they are just coincidence.
There are too many hoops to jump through to make them fit. They can be just coincidence and clutter.
I would put a lid on the Jars.

Logically, if my quote is true, the reverse of it cannot be true.
The artifacts exist.  Joe's research has made a case for what they are.  If Joe is wrong, then some other explanation must be right.  If you can come up with a well-researched and documented  alternative explanation that holds up better than Joe's I'm sure Joe (and I) will gladly embrace it, but dismissing artifacts by saying, "They can be just coincidence and clutter." doesn't cut it.
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tom howard

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Re: Dr. Berry's Freckle Cream
« Reply #399 on: November 02, 2012, 12:31:23 PM »

I think the reverse of Rics quote can also be true.  It can be desperate as well to add a lot of meaningless clutter together and produce a pile and say "here look, can this all be coincidence?"
For the bottles and Jar, yes they are just coincidence.
There are too many hoops to jump through to make them fit. They can be just coincidence and clutter.
I would put a lid on the Jars.

Logically, if my quote is true, the reverse of it cannot be true.
The artifacts exist.  Joe's research has made a case for what they are.  If Joe is wrong, then some other explanation must be right.  If you can come up with a well-researched and documented  alternative explanation that holds up better than Joe's I'm sure Joe (and I) will gladly embrace it, but dismissing artifacts by saying, "They can be just coincidence and clutter." doesn't cut it.
1920's jar of freckle cream dropped overboard by one of the pleasure cruises around gardner Mark Pearce documented.
1940's skat bottle, refilled by an islander with hand lotion.
Either work just as well as Earhart.
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Ric Gillespie

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Re: Dr. Berry's Freckle Cream
« Reply #400 on: November 02, 2012, 01:12:52 PM »

1920's jar of freckle cream dropped overboard by one of the pleasure cruises around gardner Mark Pearce documented.

Pleasure cruises around Gardner???  I missed that one.  Must have come been mentioned while I was away. Can you provide a link?

Anyway, I just did a little experiment with a one of the freckle cream jars that has a tight fitting lid.  An empty freckle cream jar sinks like a stone.

1940's skat bottle, refilled by an islander with hand lotion.

Where on earth is an islander going to get hand lotion?

You're going to have to do much better than that.
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tom howard

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Re: Dr. Berry's Freckle Cream
« Reply #401 on: November 02, 2012, 01:45:35 PM »

Yes Mark posted 1920 advertisements for cruises around gardner. It is in this thread.
They were not exactly concerned with the ocean then. So some freckle cream is used up and dropped overboard. A few typhoons and decades later Tighar finds it.
That explains the freckle cream jar nicely. How a 1920's jar got on gardner.

Where would an islander get hand lotion? They were not totally primitive, far from it and they did even have a hospital. That could get lotion there in bulk and refill an American skat bottle. They reused american discards as tighar has documented. Or a coast guardsman could have refilled a skat jar with hand lotion and took it hiking during some alone time. There are countless possibilities.I remember when one field search produced 67 pairs of panties. Strange stuff gets out there. These jars are not even strange. Common house items from anyone. During flooding these jars could be pushed anywhere, such as the seven site. Or maybe the coast guardsman applied his last bit of handcream there looking at the ocean. The possibilities are so numerous it is mind boggling.

Being an ex peace officer from the southwest I know you can have a report of a missing girl last seen walking down the road. It is fruitless to search a field with some trash in it and proclaim every pencil is the little girls. Tighar will have to do better than that.

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Ric Gillespie

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Re: Dr. Berry's Freckle Cream
« Reply #402 on: November 02, 2012, 02:13:49 PM »

Yes Mark posted 1920 advertisements for cruises around gardner. It is in this thread.

Not that I can find, and the idea that there were ever pleasure cruises around Gardner is laughable.

They were not exactly concerned with the ocean then. So some freckle cream is used up and dropped overboard. A few typhoons and decades later Tighar finds it.
That explains the freckle cream jar nicely. How a 1920's jar got on gardner.

As I've already explained, a freckle cream bottle dropped overboard would sink.

Where would an islander get hand lotion? They were not totally primitive, far from it and they did even have a hospital. That could get lotion there in bulk and refill an American skat bottle. They reused american discards as tighar has documented. Or a coast guardsman could have refilled a skat jar with hand lotion and took it hiking during some alone time. There are countless possibilities.I remember when one field search produced 67 pairs of panties. Strange stuff gets out there. These jars are not even strange. Common house items from anyone. During flooding these jars could be pushed anywhere, such as the seven site. Or maybe the coast guardsman applied his last bit of handcream there looking at the ocean. The possibilities are so numerous it is mind boggling.

What is mind boggling is your total misconception of the island and the people who lived there.  We'll waste no more time on this speculation.
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Bob Lanz

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Re: Dr. Berry's Freckle Cream
« Reply #403 on: November 02, 2012, 02:47:05 PM »

"So ended our wonderful cruise amongst those wondrous reef-bound Pacific coral islands of green woods, cocoanut palms bracken covered stretches, all clothed just as nature made them, and marred only by the grim tragedies of those whose ships strayed shoreward." 

Papers Past, the Phoenix Group
Doc
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Bob Lanz

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Re: Dr. Berry's Freckle Cream
« Reply #404 on: November 02, 2012, 03:35:05 PM »

"So ended our wonderful cruise amongst those wondrous reef-bound Pacific coral islands of green woods, cocoanut palms bracken covered stretches, all clothed just as nature made them, and marred only by the grim tragedies of those whose ships strayed shoreward." 

Papers Past, the Phoenix Group

Wow, how did I miss that before?  They had quite a time, including a stop at Gardner for gosh' sake.

Jeff, as much as I would like to take credit for that find, I must admit that it came from our dear friend and member C. W. "Woody" Herndon. 
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