Advanced search  
Pages: 1 ... 6 7 [8] 9   Go Down

Author Topic: Confidence  (Read 114927 times)

Andrew M McKenna

  • Administrator
  • *
  • Posts: 692
  • Here I am during the Maid of Harlech Survey.
Re: Confidence
« Reply #105 on: July 29, 2012, 08:37:36 AM »

Malcolm Says:
Quote

Well yes, it will only create more inflamed passions, however I will ask it. If recovery seems to be a dead issue as far as TIGHAR is concerned then why bother with continuing the P38 and the TBD as TIGHAR projects. I am fully aware of the difficulties connected with recovering US Navy aircraft as the US Navy never relinquishes ownership, something which has stymied many efforts by people to recover the Lake Michigan aircraft. While the P38 was actually known about for quite a while so TIGHAR's involvement is moot at best given that recovery is now not a part of the business plan. Wouldn't be best simply to divert funding into the search for the Electra and as a second string to the bow keep looking for L'Oiseau Blanc which is a very important aviation artifact.

Malcolm. 

Who said that recovery was a "dead issue"?

Who said that "recovery is now not part of the business plan"?

You did, not I.

You've either completely missed the point of my post, or you're intentionally misconstruing what I said. 

What I said was "There certainly are plans to recover all of them, but it is hard to recover any of them without the right resources, and more importantly, the right plan to conserve, preserve, and house them as genuine historic artifacts..."

In my mind, until there is a qualified home for the artifacts, the right plan for conservation, and the right amount of funding to accomplish both, it would be criminal to simply yank the aircraft out of the salt water simply because we can.

Just because it is difficult to do it right doesn't mean we've abandoned those plans.

Andrew

« Last Edit: July 29, 2012, 10:34:43 AM by Bruce Thomas »
Logged

Bill Roe

  • T3
  • ***
  • Posts: 161
Re: Confidence
« Reply #106 on: July 29, 2012, 02:00:50 PM »

Well yes, it will only create more inflamed passions, however I will ask it. If recovery seems to be a dead issue as far as TIGHAR is concerned then why bother with continuing the P38 and the TBD as TIGHAR projects. I am fully aware of the difficulties connected with recovering US Navy aircraft as the US Navy never relinquishes ownership, something which has stymied many efforts by people to recover the Lake Michigan aircraft. While the P38 was actually known about for quite a while so TIGHAR's involvement is moot at best given that recovery is now not a part of the business plan. Wouldn't be best simply to divert funding into the search for the Electra and as a second string to the bow keep looking for L'Oiseau Blanc which is a very important aviation artifact.

You know, I like, very much, a lot of what you contribute here.  And keep contributing even with the blistering attacks as a result of ......I dunno - perhaps the lack of comprehension?

-OR-

Has this Earhart thing become an obsession rather than a scientific goal?  TIGHAR - "The International Group For Historic Aircraft Recovery".  Has it been proven that the Electra probably does not exist for recovery?  Aren't there historic aircraft sitting out there waiting to be recovered?  How about the Devastator?  It seems to me that this airplane should have priority as there are none in existence.  When does a group of intelligent, dedicated individuals say:  "It doesn't exist - let's stop wasting time and bucks".
Logged

Bruce Thomas

  • Administrator
  • *
  • Posts: 651
  • Now where did I put my glasses?
Re: Confidence
« Reply #107 on: July 29, 2012, 02:27:44 PM »

Aren't there historic aircraft sitting out there waiting to be recovered?  How about the Devastator?  It seems to me that this airplane should have priority as there are none in existence.

Sounds like the time is ripe for someone who sincerely believes that to start posting in the section of the TIGHAR Forum devoted to the Devastator ... there hasn't been anything posted there since April 2011!  Compare that to the overwhelming volume of postings for the AE project.
LTM,

Bruce
TIGHAR #3123R
 
Logged

Bill Roe

  • T3
  • ***
  • Posts: 161
Re: Confidence
« Reply #108 on: July 29, 2012, 02:33:54 PM »

... there hasn't been anything posted there since April 2011!  Compare that to the overwhelming volume of postings for the AE project.

Due to a coupla good reasons.....
1.)  All Tighar activity has been involved with AE
2.)  AE appears to be the obsession of the decade
Logged

Bruce Thomas

  • Administrator
  • *
  • Posts: 651
  • Now where did I put my glasses?
Re: Confidence
« Reply #109 on: July 29, 2012, 02:43:24 PM »

... there hasn't been anything posted there since April 2011!  Compare that to the overwhelming volume of postings for the AE project.

Due to a coupla good reasons.....
1.)  All Tighar activity has been involved with AE
2.)  AE appears to be the obsession of the decade

1.) False
2.) True.
LTM,

Bruce
TIGHAR #3123R
 
Logged

Martin X. Moleski, SJ

  • Administrator
  • *
  • Posts: 3006
Re: Confidence
« Reply #110 on: July 29, 2012, 03:18:47 PM »

When does a group of intelligent, dedicated individuals say:  "It doesn't exist - let's stop wasting time and bucks".

When they have searched all likely places and not found what they are looking for.

The KOK is due back in port some time today.

Would it be OK with you to allow them some time to review the high-definition tapes they are bringing home with them before declaring "it doesn't exist"?  Or would examining the data somehow be unintelligent and a sign of a lack of commitment to you?
LTM,

           Marty
           TIGHAR #2359A
 
Logged

Greg Daspit

  • TIGHAR member
  • *
  • Posts: 788
Re: Confidence
« Reply #111 on: July 29, 2012, 05:03:58 PM »

When does a group of intelligent, dedicated individuals say:  "It doesn't exist - let's stop wasting time and bucks".

Bill,
Respectfully,
Why do you want to know when someone will claim"it doesn't exist"?
If you beleive it does exist then why ask a question wanting to know when someone will claim the opposite?

3971R
 
Logged

Bill Roe

  • T3
  • ***
  • Posts: 161
Re: Confidence
« Reply #112 on: July 29, 2012, 05:46:51 PM »

Hi Greg -
The question was rhetorical.
I was merely pointing out that it is apparent that the electra no longer exists therefore not recoverable.  At the same time assets continue to be exhausted when they may be more productive, in tune with the Tighar mission, on other projects.

When does a group of intelligent, dedicated individuals say:  "It doesn't exist - let's stop wasting time and bucks".

Bill,
Respectfully,
Why do you want to know when someone will claim"it doesn't exist"?
If you beleive it does exist then why ask a question wanting to know when someone will claim the opposite?
Logged

Tom Swearengen

  • T5
  • *****
  • Posts: 818
  • earhart monument, Hawaii
Re: Confidence
« Reply #113 on: July 29, 2012, 05:52:29 PM »

Bill----I think there have been an outline of plans to recover the Devestator. I believe the museum in Pensacola has expressed interest. Ok-----but its a long way from Truk lagoon to Pensacola, and the Navy still owns the plane, unless I'm wrong.
I would think after 65+ years underwater, that some sort of conservation woul dhave to take place IMMEDIATELY  after being raised. All of that is expensive, and frankly, I doubt if the museum is ready for it. But-----you can bet that when they are, TIGHAR well get the job.
Tom Swearengen TIGHAR # 3297
 
Logged

Bruce Thomas

  • Administrator
  • *
  • Posts: 651
  • Now where did I put my glasses?
Re: Confidence
« Reply #114 on: July 29, 2012, 06:09:43 PM »

Back in April 2011 Monte Fowler posted a short crisp message in the portion of this Forum for the Devastator project, simply saying  "Bummer - looks like the NNAM has given up on the Majuro Devastator."   [NNAM=National Naval Aviation Museum (NNAM, in Pensacola)] 

Perhaps Monte will see this, and post an update in the General Discussion area for the Devastator project elaborating on what he learned back then, and any subsequent G2 he's come up with. 
LTM,

Bruce
TIGHAR #3123R
 
Logged

Malcolm McKay

  • Read-only
  • *
  • Posts: 551
Re: Confidence
« Reply #115 on: July 29, 2012, 11:24:57 PM »

Malcolm, I fail to understand your reasoning here. You cite anecdotal evidence, which you have on several occasions declared to be unreliable, as possible proof that the French crew may have been the first to fly from Paris to New York. Since they did not reach New York how can the reports be proof of something that did not happen? (my emphasis added)

Well actually it was TIGHAR who were the ones who started looking for that aircraft based on the anecdotal evidence, not I. But there is also a lot of anecdotal evidence used in TIGHAR's search for the Electra (Betty's notebook, the supposed aircraft wreckage sighted by the islanders on Nikumaroro, etc.) however I do find it rather a disappointment that nothing came of the TIGHAR search for the L'Oiseau Blanc despite TIGHAR's excellent efforts as it is an aircraft of great historical importance. 
Logged

Malcolm McKay

  • Read-only
  • *
  • Posts: 551
Re: Confidence
« Reply #116 on: July 29, 2012, 11:29:23 PM »


How important that is remains for the individual, I suppose.  I'm still intrigued by the loss of Paul Redfern in his Stinson Detroiter 'Port of Brunswick' on his way to Rio from the coast of Georgia (but have little confidence in finding him or his airplane). 


Thanks Jeff - I'd forgotten Redfern. That was a brave effort, and you are right about how difficult locating any trace would be. It wasn't called the Golden Age of Flying for nothing.
Logged

Malcolm McKay

  • Read-only
  • *
  • Posts: 551
Re: Confidence
« Reply #117 on: July 30, 2012, 12:11:05 AM »


What I said was "There certainly are plans to recover all of them, but it is hard to recover any of them without the right resources, and more importantly, the right plan to conserve, preserve, and house them as genuine historic artifacts..."

In my mind, until there is a qualified home for the artifacts, the right plan for conservation, and the right amount of funding to accomplish both, it would be criminal to simply yank the aircraft out of the salt water simply because we can.

Just because it is difficult to do it right doesn't mean we've abandoned those plans.

Andrew

Well I must admit I took that as meaning that as TIGHAR didn't have the facilities to process and stabilize recovered parts then recovery was no longer an objective. But there is nothing wrong with simply locating and allowing others who have the facilities to do the recovery - although these days with national governments becoming more heritage conscious then the waters become murkier (pardon the pun).
Logged

Martin X. Moleski, SJ

  • Administrator
  • *
  • Posts: 3006
Re: Confidence
« Reply #118 on: July 30, 2012, 06:01:48 AM »

I don't think that Bill was saying that at all - he was simply asking a question.

Is it possible to make statements in question form?

Are some questions more loaded than others?

Do you know how to play the question game?

Could I go on like this for some time, without ever using a declarative sentence?

Do you suppose people would get my meaning?

Did you notice that my reply to Bill was also nothing but questions?

When does a group of intelligent, dedicated individuals say:  "It doesn't exist - let's stop wasting time and bucks"?

... Would it be OK with you to allow them some time to review the high-definition tapes they are bringing home with them before declaring "it doesn't exist"?  Or would examining the data somehow be unintelligent and a sign of a lack of commitment to you?

If asking questions means making no commitments, why do you support Bill's questions and criticize mine?
LTM,

           Marty
           TIGHAR #2359A
 
« Last Edit: July 30, 2012, 06:03:56 AM by Martin X. Moleski, SJ »
Logged

C.W. Herndon

  • T5
  • *****
  • Posts: 634
Re: Confidence
« Reply #119 on: July 30, 2012, 07:15:28 AM »

Malcolm, I fail to understand your reasoning here. You cite anecdotal evidence, which you have on several occasions declared to be unreliable, as possible proof that the French crew may have been the first to fly from Paris to New York. Since they did not reach New York how can the reports be proof of something that did not happen? (my emphasis added)

Well actually it was TIGHAR who were the ones who started looking for that aircraft based on the anecdotal evidence, not I. But there is also a lot of anecdotal evidence used in TIGHAR's search for the Electra (Betty's notebook, the supposed aircraft wreckage sighted by the islanders on Nikumaroro, etc.) however I do find it rather a disappointment that nothing came of the TIGHAR search for the L'Oiseau Blanc despite TIGHAR's excellent efforts as it is an aircraft of great historical importance.

Malcolm, although it was very simple, you didn't answer my question.
Woody (former 3316R)
"the watcher"
 
Logged
Pages: 1 ... 6 7 [8] 9   Go Up
 

Copyright 2024 by TIGHAR, a non-profit foundation. No portion of the TIGHAR Website may be reproduced by xerographic, photographic, digital or any other means for any purpose. No portion of the TIGHAR Website may be stored in a retrieval system, copied, transmitted or transferred in any form or by any means, whether electronic, mechanical, digital, photographic, magnetic or otherwise, for any purpose without the express, written permission of TIGHAR. All rights reserved.

Contact us at: info@tighar.org • Phone: 610-467-1937 • Membership formwebmaster@tighar.org

Powered by MySQL SMF 2.0.18 | SMF © 2021, Simple Machines Powered by PHP