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Author Topic: Artifact 2-2-V-1 - aluminum 'skin'  (Read 78552 times)

Jeffrey Pearce

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Re: Artifact 2-2-V-1 - aluminum 'skin'
« Reply #60 on: June 21, 2012, 01:28:48 PM »

Has consideration been given toward trying to find the concern/concerns that made alterations,repairs to Ms. Earhart's Electra?
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John Ousterhout

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Artifact 2-2-V-1 - aluminum 'skin'
« Reply #61 on: June 22, 2012, 01:32:30 PM »

Some photos of a Japanese aircraft showing tapered lines of rivets can be seen here.  The link also shows a similar aircraft that has shed some of its aluminum pieces.  The missing pieces bring to mind the 2-2-v-1 artifact.
What do we know about Japanese aircraft construction?  Did they use thinner aluminum than was normal for Allied aircraft?  Would the rivet holes be diistinctively different in size, or would there be only subtle differences?  Would the normal spacing be distinctive?  For that matter, would Japanese aluminum be chemically distinct from Allied aluminum?  The NTSB report identified it as clearly Alclad, and had remnants of two letters visible ("AD").  Would these characteristics definitely rule-out a Japanese aircraft as the source?
Cheers,
JohnO
 
« Last Edit: August 08, 2012, 11:32:45 AM by J. Nevill »
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John Ousterhout

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Re: Artifact 2-2-V-1 - aluminum 'skin'
« Reply #62 on: June 23, 2012, 07:43:47 AM »

Jeffrey,

Do you mean by  "...the concern/concerns...." the company that made the alterations?  As I understand it, that was Lockheed.  I've read that TIGHAR have looked, but the records of work done on the aircraft are pretty slim.
Cheers,
JohnO
 
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Bruce Thomas

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Re: Artifact 2-2-V-1 - aluminum 'skin'
« Reply #63 on: June 23, 2012, 08:29:09 AM »

Jeffrey,

Do you mean by  "...the concern/concerns...." the company that made the alterations?  As I understand it, that was Lockheed.  I've read that TIGHAR have looked, but the records of work done on the aircraft are pretty slim.

Yesterday I was asking myself if either of the engines was replaced after the Luke Field crash.  The Aircraft Inspection Report dated May 19, 1937, gives their serial numbers.  But is there an earlier AIR to compare those numbers against?  Then I found a summary of 1999 Forum postings, with an entry from Ric saying this:
Quote
Although both props were severely damaged in the Luke Field crash, there is no indication in the repair records or inspection report that either engine was replaced or overhauled. The engine serial numbers remain identical to those in the original inspection done prior to the airplane's delivery in July 1936. Likewise, the prop hubs were not changed but the report does confirm that new blades were installed.

So, I figure there is a goldmine of records at TIGHAR HQs!   ;D
LTM,

Bruce
TIGHAR #3123R
 
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Jeffrey Pearce

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Re: Artifact 2-2-V-1 - aluminum 'skin'
« Reply #64 on: June 23, 2012, 03:58:36 PM »

John,

The 1st thing that comes to mind is the people who did the work. There might be a record of the metal used, it's thickness, where the work was done on the plane, a description of the piece itself. Back then, were reports required to be filed when work on an aircraft was performed? Information loke this could possibly contribute to linking 2-2-V-1 to Ms earhart's plane?

No respect, no respect at all.
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richie conroy

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Re: Artifact 2-2-V-1 - aluminum 'skin'
« Reply #65 on: June 23, 2012, 05:42:34 PM »

i have wondered about the engine propeller covers, for a while now

pic 1 is of before luke field crash

pic 2 is after the crash

so it is just a cover cap ?
We are an echo of the past


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Daniel Paul Cotts

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Re: Artifact 2-2-V-1 - aluminum 'skin'
« Reply #66 on: July 01, 2012, 09:38:56 PM »

New thread references another site Interesting Info with pics of the Electra. One taken in Miami shows the right side of the aircraft and a shiny area that seems to be the covered window.
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C.W. Herndon

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Re: Artifact 2-2-V-1 - aluminum 'skin'
« Reply #67 on: July 02, 2012, 08:31:23 AM »

i have wondered about the engine propeller covers, for a while now

pic 1 is of before luke field crash

pic 2 is after the crash

so it is just a cover cap ?

Richie, what you are showing in your pictures is commonly called a "spinner" and only covers the propeller hub to afford a small amount of streamlining. It made it a little harder to perform maintenance on hub. Spinners from that era also had a tendency to slip and allow the propeller openings to turn against the propeller blade which could cause damage to the blade if not corrected quickly. I would only hazard a guess that AE decided that they weren't worth the extra hassle and had them removed.

From what I have read and the pictures I have seen, I would guess that the "propeller covers" were made of some type of fabric material, canvas maybe, and were cut and fitted to slide over each of the propeller blades (to protect them from the elements while parked?). Why they went to all of that trouble is beyond me.

http://earchives.lib.purdue.edu/u?/earhart,380 
Woody (former 3316R)
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Bruce Thomas

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Re: Artifact 2-2-V-1 - aluminum 'skin'
« Reply #68 on: July 02, 2012, 08:54:50 AM »

From what I have read and the pictures I have seen, I would guess that the "propeller covers" were made of some type of fabric material, canvas maybe, and were cut and fitted to slide over each of the propeller blades (to protect them from the elements while parked?). Why they went to all of that trouble is beyond me.

http://earchives.lib.purdue.edu/u?/earhart,380

Woody, the picture you've included with your posting is not related to "propeller covers." 

What's shown in the picture is AE being handed a package containing "first day covers" from the postmaster ("postmistress"?) of Oakland, California.  While this photo was taken before the First World Flight, I'm willing to bet that a similar package went along on the Second World Flight ... and ended up all soggy and ruined!

Those first-day covers would have been considerably more valuable than the local first-day covers that didn't get carried aloft -- here's a link to a first-day cover related to AE's solo crossing of the Atlantic in 1932, issued in NYC after her flight and subsequent return to the U.S.

Another example is a first-day cover issued to mark her first flight across the Atlantic in 1928 as "a sack of potatoes."  It bears her signature and sold last year for more than $500. 
LTM,

Bruce
TIGHAR #3123R
 
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C.W. Herndon

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Re: Artifact 2-2-V-1 - aluminum 'skin'
« Reply #69 on: July 02, 2012, 09:11:53 AM »

I guess I misunderstood what was in the package.

Must have been a whole bunch of those little postcards.
Woody (former 3316R)
"the watcher"
 
« Last Edit: July 02, 2012, 09:37:36 AM by C.W. Herndon »
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C.W. Herndon

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Re: Artifact 2-2-V-1 - aluminum 'skin'
« Reply #70 on: July 03, 2012, 12:26:23 PM »

Jeff, no telling what one would be worth.

The note would have been great!!! Who knows, we may find it yet.
Woody (former 3316R)
"the watcher"
 
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Kirstin M. Campbell

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Re: Artifact 2-2-V-1 - aluminum 'skin'
« Reply #71 on: July 31, 2012, 07:43:44 PM »

I'm new to the topic so I apologize if I tromp through old territory.  I'm still trying to catch up on what analysis has been done along with learning to navigate the site to that information.  Just from my background in aviation metal work and repairs there are some things I'd like to know that I have not come across so far.  Or I missed it.

Do they have Lockheed's 10E complete rivet pattern blueprints or their metal repair manuals?  If they still exist.  These were among the tools we used in mishap investigations to match sections.

Do they have this 10E's Aircraft Log Book which should show what mods and Depot level repairs have been done?

Have they done deeper alloy analysis on the 2024 alloy aluminum of various metal parts and cross checked with a surviving 10E built around the same time?  If such an aircraft exists.  Salt water immersion may have altered the aluminum too much but since not all Alclad is the same between batches I was just curious.  The fact I didn't see the tempers included in their analysis may be my clue that there is too much damage.

Thx :)
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Martin X. Moleski, SJ

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Re: Artifact 2-2-V-1 - aluminum 'skin'
« Reply #72 on: July 31, 2012, 10:09:01 PM »

Do they have Lockheed's 10E complete rivet pattern blueprints or their metal repair manuals?  If they still exist.

So far as I know, TIGHAR has never found such blueprints or manuals.

Quote
Do they have this 10E's Aircraft Log Book which should show what mods and Depot level repairs have been done?

I don't think so.

Quote
Have they done deeper alloy analysis on the 2024 alloy aluminum of various metal parts and cross checked with a surviving 10E built around the same time?  If such an aircraft exists.

TIGHAR worked with History Detectives to help authenticate a piece of cowling from the wreck at Luke field. 

I don't think the identification is absolute.

Even if it is taken to be reliable, it's not clear how that sample would relate to random samples from NR16020.
LTM,

           Marty
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pilotart

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Re: Artifact 2-2-V-1 - aluminum 'skin'
« Reply #73 on: August 01, 2012, 12:16:50 AM »

KC,

Welcome to the forum!

Marty has some excellent FAQ's on this site for finding files etc.  For me; the easiest has been just to look on the TIGHAR home website's "Site-Map" and scroll down it.

I have attached a pdf (of 164 pages) which is a copy of the FAA's file on the Electra in question.  This is a public document and you can order one (for any US Reg. AC) from OKC on a CD with the exact same pdf for $10 including shipping.  Takes a month or so (they have to photograph each microfiche page back/front and burn the CD) and has no better resolution than the online version.  I downloaded this one from AvWeb (I think) and don't know if TIGHAR has a copy for download on site.

In addition to all the certification records, it contains what we now refer to as "337's", scroll down to page 59-71 to see what was submitted by Lockheed to the FAA (CAB back then) for the airframe repairs after the ground loop.  I have no idea what the policy was for 1937, but the FAA has gone back and forth on the requirements for submitting "Engineering Drawings" for repairs.

I would check Perdue's Archives for possible Maintenance Log copies, they should exist.

As far as rivet patterns, I'm sure you know from your background but for the benefit of some other readers:  No two aircraft will ever have the exact same rivet locations, when you replace a section of skin or airframe, you start with a blank (as far as holes are concerned) and must drill each rivet hole to exactly match the existing corresponding hole from where the old panel was removed.

There has been a lot of forum discussion on metallurgy testing for found aluminum,  on the site-map you will see many years of archived 'email-forums' by the month, no 'threads' or 'topics', you just have to do a Key-Word Find to read a specific topic within a month.  If you just want to read the whole archive, I found it best to copy/paste each month from the Browser into MS Word, where you can easily control the view, layout, font and format as well as save anything you want to keep.

****************************************************
Well all the excitement must be overloading the TIGHAR Servers as I have tried five times to post this (with the attachment) and it just creeps up to 100% in three minutes and then kicks me back.  Here is a download link:

http://www.planefaxreports.com/pfr/pdf/n16020/16020-Registration.pdf
Art Johnson
 
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Kirstin M. Campbell

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Re: Artifact 2-2-V-1 - aluminum 'skin'
« Reply #74 on: August 01, 2012, 07:17:32 AM »

Nice.  Thx Martin and Pilotart.  Given the time period I suspected this was the case on blueprints and manuals.  I'm more familiar with the 1940's on and still trying to catch up on 1930's procedures.

Pilotart, yes I am aware but I'm thinking in the broader sense of similarities coming off the assembly line rather than exact rivet placement which never happens.  It was just info gathering to jump start my brain by jumping into the middle while I catch up on all the other information.  Thank you for the PDF!  That is exactly the sort of thing I was looking for to catch up with everyone else and all the engineers here who have far more qualifications than my hangar wrench turning lends me.  :)
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