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Author Topic: After the Landing  (Read 288805 times)

Gloria Walker Burger

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Re: After the Landing
« Reply #375 on: August 06, 2013, 02:22:06 PM »

I love the part: "to be recovered by TIGHAR in 2014!!"
Responding to Dave Deusenberry's post.
Gloria
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« Last Edit: August 06, 2013, 02:24:14 PM by Gloria Walker Burger »
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Gloria Walker Burger

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Re: After the Landing
« Reply #376 on: August 06, 2013, 09:35:16 PM »

So what's the point in engaging in "pure fiction" that is completely devoid of any factual support?

First of all, it's fun, and I'm sure you want us to have fun on this forum as well as contribute; it will help to bring us back.
Second of all, something may pop out that hasn't been thought of before or an idea may trigger another idea or a new place on Niku to search. You never know.
Gloria
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David Deusenberry

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Re: After the Landing
« Reply #377 on: August 07, 2013, 06:41:52 AM »

Based on the items recovered I’m 99.9% sure the Electra and its crew spent time on the island. My question is why.  Fred was one of the best navigators of his time and I’m confident he knew they were over Gardner so why not continue to fly in the area until they could spot it? It could be as simple as he was not at the controls and Amelia made the decision to continue on her last known heading and they spotted Gardner Island at some point. It wouldn’t be the first time she went against his advice.  We may never know why they ended up there even after the Electra is recovered.

As mentioned above this thread is supposed to be fun and you never know, someone might hit on a use of an item that has been found that wasn’t considered before and all the sudden a few more pieces of the puzzle fit.
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Charlie Chisholm

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Re: After the Landing
« Reply #378 on: August 07, 2013, 10:10:26 AM »

Fred was one of the best navigators of his time and I’m confident he knew they were over Gardner so why not continue to fly in the area until they could spot it?

Did you mean to say Howland? If so, it's because they were running low on reserve gas (they even said so in the radio messages to Itasca), and had already spent over an hour in the area trying to find Howland. At some point, they had to give up on Howland, and that point would be before they were too low on gas to make it to the Phoenix group. They stayed and looked as long as they possibly could.

It could be as simple as he was not at the controls and Amelia made the decision to continue on her last known heading and they spotted Gardner Island at some point. It wouldn’t be the first time she went against his advice.

They probably decided together to head for the Phoenix group on the LOP. Both of their lives were at stake. It may have even been Noonan who was insisting they do so - he was the navigator, and one of the best in the world - if he couldn't find Howland, Amelia certainly couldn't either.
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Greg Daspit

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Re: After the Landing
« Reply #379 on: August 07, 2013, 10:49:42 AM »

At some point, they had to give up on Howland,

They probably decided together to head for the Phoenix group on the LOP. Both of their lives were at stake. It may have even been Noonan who was insisting they do so - he was the navigator, and one of the best in the world - if he couldn't find Howland, Amelia certainly couldn't either.

I think flying on the line of position they were still hoping to find Howland and there was no decision to try for Gardner.
For a while I thought that maybe after some time they may have realized the odds of hitting Howland were diminishing and finding Gardner was more likely. However, after studying the Time and Tide article there is only a  2 hour window after the LOP transmission for a probable safe landing. They could have been well south of Howland before starting the LOP search pattern. Maybe even closer to Gardner than to Howland and therefore in looking for Howland found Gardner instead without ever making a decision regarding an alternate landing spot.
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Monty Fowler

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Re: After the Landing
« Reply #380 on: August 07, 2013, 10:50:09 AM »

Let's not forget one of the oft-overlooked factors - money. Amelia and George Putnam basically had to make this trip work in order to stay afloat financially. Ditching, and losing, the Electra was probably so far from Amelia's mind that she refused to even entertain the possibility. ANYTHING she could do to possibly save the aircraft would have been Choice No. 1.

LTM, who likes multiple choice questions,
Monty Fowler, TIGHAR No. 2189 CER
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manjeet aujla

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Re: After the Landing
« Reply #381 on: August 07, 2013, 12:06:55 PM »

One of the articles of a while ago (I think possibly by Ric), mentions that evidence points to offset navigation having not been used, on the approach. But there is evidence that a direct approach was ("we must be on you..."). So when they reached the 137/ LOP, and did not see Howland, the most rational thing to do was to fly a little distance north in the hopes of spotting Howland, and then turn south, to a known set of islands, thus ending up on Niku. This sounds very plausible as a reason they ended up at Niku. 

I also agree that Fred got a fix on their location after landing. Betty seems to indicate Fred was injured, but seemed to be yelling (where AE was trying to calm him). If he was strong enough to yell, he was maybe strong enough to get himself up to take some fixes on location.

It is also highly likely, I say close to certain, that Fred knew it was Gardner. He was an experienced seaman, and the whole marine community of his time knew about the Norwich City disaster, and where she had run aground. So if he saw the shipwreck, he must have instantly realized he was on Gardner. Indeed even before landing the plane, they must have seen the wreck, and Fred would have told AE..."Hey that is Norwich City, she ran aground on Gardner...so this is Gardner Island."
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David Deusenberry

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Re: After the Landing
« Reply #382 on: August 07, 2013, 01:14:06 PM »

If I’m not mistaken the navigators station was near the rear of the Electra behind a large fuel tank. He passed notes attached to a piece of bamboo to Amelia in fight so his yelling could have just been to be heard over the engines not that he was hurt. I’m sure they were both pretty shaken up after the landing and their voices were both frantic.
How many items from the Norwich City wreck have been found at the seven site? I would think to a castaway that the wreck would have been a treasure trove of survival items. Would it have been possible to board the ship? A resent wreck would also have a huge fresh water tank on board if it hadn’t been contaminated by sea water. 
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Jeff Victor Hayden

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Re: After the Landing
« Reply #383 on: August 07, 2013, 01:47:49 PM »

It is also highly likely, I say close to certain, that Fred knew it was Gardner. He was an experienced seaman, and the whole marine community of his time knew about the Norwich City disaster, and where she had run aground. So if he saw the shipwreck, he must have instantly realized he was on Gardner. Indeed even before landing the plane, they must have seen the wreck, and Fred would have told AE..."Hey that is Norwich City, she ran aground on Gardner...so this is Gardner Island."

Good reasoning Manjeet. It may well have been the case that FN, through his close association with the sea going fraternity and his 22 years sea-going experience, was aware of a ship having gone aground in the Phoenix islands in 1929. Perhaps the name of the ship and the island escaped his memory but, ship run aground in the Phoenix islands didn't. So, not being 100% sure of the name of the island or the ship send, Phoenix islands and, not being a native of the UK he might recall the name of the ship as being the NY city instead of Norwich City?
Whatever was sent and received made no difference to the outcome but, it's just a thought.
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Dan Swift

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Re: After the Landing
« Reply #384 on: August 07, 2013, 03:55:43 PM »

Monty, that is right on!  Not the first time she ended up in the wrong place.  And I am sure she is thinking, just bring the fuel to me so I can get out of here and finish.  Of course a banged up Electra may have changed that a bit, but ditching and removing any chance of completing the trip, out of the question. 
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manjeet aujla

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Re: After the Landing
« Reply #385 on: August 12, 2013, 11:45:47 AM »

Jeff, it is true that, as you say, it did not make any difference. However reasonings like this help to put another brick into our edifice of understanding of what was going on then, and may be useful to keep in mind, later, ... or not...lol.

In that vein, an argument can be made that Fred did know it was Gardner - he was a longtime seaman (sea-captain?), and would know and remember details about recent maritime disasters, much more than the general public, just as people in the aviation  community today remember recent air disaster details more than the general public.  Anyway, you do seem to agree that he would at least remember that the wreck had happened in the P Islands, and so they knew they were in the P Islands somewhere.

On the other hand, if he knew they were on Gardner, then why did they not just transmit "Gardner" over and over again, for all they were worth?  I am not an expert on the post-crash transmissions, but that seems to have not happened. Yes, Betty records 'Ny City' (which is surely meant to have been Norwich City), but that is just part of a larger transmission of other things. I would transmit just one word over and over again - "Gardner", especially given they were newbies in morse keying, and keying off of a mic.

Anyway, it was a thought experiment on my part, and I am sure it has been discussed in some forum here sometime. At this time it does not seem particularly significant.

To the post on Fred passing notes on a bamboo pole to AE as their communication method, while they were flying, that is also my understanding.

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Martin X. Moleski, SJ

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Re: After the Landing
« Reply #386 on: August 12, 2013, 12:02:32 PM »

To the post on Fred passing notes on a bamboo pole to AE as their communication method, while they were flying, that is also my understanding.

I am very tempted to make newcomers pass an entrance exam before we allow them to post on the Forum.

Everybody is welcome to their personal opinions, but not to their personal "facts."

The bamboo pole was used on the first attempt to fly around the world, when there were four souls on board: Earhart, Mantz, Mnning, and Noonan.

On the second world attempt, Fred could sit next to AE whenever he wished.  So far as I know, we have no information on how he may have split his time between the workstation and the cockpit, or whether he used the bamboo pole.  He had options.
LTM,

           Marty
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Jeff Victor Hayden

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Re: After the Landing
« Reply #387 on: August 12, 2013, 01:19:35 PM »

At this time it does not seem particularly significant.

True Manjeet but, sometime in the future it may well become significant, only time will tell. It helps to have new angles and thoughts on particular subjects and theories. Doesn't mean they are proven or true but, you never know. Good input Manjeet!
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Ric Gillespie

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Re: After the Landing
« Reply #388 on: August 13, 2013, 12:27:45 PM »

Is that what you had in mind when you started this thread?   

Actually, no.  All threads on this forum invite good research and informed speculation that may inspire further research.  Long rambling fact-free fantasies just waste everyone's time.  And if you really want to get in trouble around here keep using expressions like "Chick E Babe," "honey," and referring to a 39 year old woman as "the girl". 
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Stacy Galloway

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Re: After the Landing
« Reply #389 on: August 13, 2013, 01:46:46 PM »

So, Ian, you're imagining this woman- who flew the plane and shunned female norms- landed on Niku and proceeded to fan herself and gripe about the heat while sitting in the shade of a coconut tree using freckle cream watching her man do the hunting and gathering? Really? Perhaps she ate bon-bons while loosening her corset and adjusting her skirts. My goodness- why did she even leave the kitchen?

And then she withered away and died because her man didn't bring her any more food... how, ummm, interesting.

I never thought of putting Amelia into a Victorian romance novel. For me, I'll leave her where she is- a forward-thinking woman who lived her dreams.

LTM~ Who doesn't see Amelia in Gone with the Wind,
Stacy
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