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Author Topic: Water in the Lifeboat  (Read 49738 times)

Chris Johnson

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Re: Water in the Lifeboat
« Reply #30 on: April 07, 2012, 10:06:21 AM »

diarrhea could account for the need for additional water supplies if the original was contaminated

I was meaning the need to re supply the NC crew if they found their water was contaminated.

I'm on a mission to find potential sources of water and then look at the suitableness of them for AE/FN
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Irvine John Donald

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Re: Water in the Lifeboat
« Reply #31 on: April 07, 2012, 10:11:56 AM »

I believe that if any containers were breached then you have to also allow for evaporation. Either way I can't imagine water that has been stored for many years could be potable without major treatment. Could it in fact be safer to just work with sea water and try desalinization knowing salt was the only " enemy" contained within?   Or would AE and FN just open the cans and drink from desperation and not think about the waters " state"?
Respectfully Submitted;

Irv
 
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Brad Beeching

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Re: Water in the Lifeboat
« Reply #32 on: April 07, 2012, 11:58:31 AM »

Something else to consider, diarrhea from drinking bad water in the conditions that exist on Niku is not the only issue. The simple act of eating exacerbates the dehydration. My survival manual and some other info I have read, all state the same thing, find a clean source of water first before eating. It seems possible that the castaway could have eaten themselves to death. I am a land lubber so bear with me. What is the salt content of the items the castaway appeared to be consuming, and could it have played a roll in how fast the castaway perished?

Brad
Brad

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Jeff Victor Hayden

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Re: Water in the Lifeboat
« Reply #33 on: April 07, 2012, 12:23:16 PM »

Spot on brad, salt plays a major role in regulating the bodies fluid balance so, too much and, too little both cause problems. Not drinking enough fluids causes the salt level in the body to increase, a vicous spiral, not enough to drink = salt level increases and so on...
This must be the place
 
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Gary LaPook

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Re: Water in the Lifeboat
« Reply #34 on: April 07, 2012, 03:28:18 PM »

This from http://www.equipped.org/watrfood.htm#SweetWater

a site providing information on survival methods and equipment. It states that prepackaged water is Coast Guard approved for a 5 year storage life and tap water is good for six months or a year.

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"Water and Food Group

I cannot possibly over emphasize THE CRITICAL IMPORTANCE OF CARRYING ADEQUATE SUPPLIES OF WATER. It may weigh a lot (2.08 lbs/quart plus container), but nothing is more vital for your body. Generally speaking, you can survive for weeks without food, but only days, or less in some circumstances, without water. Water is essential for your body and mind to function properly. You need both working as well as possible. The adverse effects of dehydration on your mental faculties, even mild dehydration, as little as 5% to 10%, are insidious and extremely dangerous in a survival situation.

The more arid the region you live in, travel through or fly over, the more water you should carry. The only reliable source of water in the desert, particularly in the summer months, is what you bring along! During the summer months in my desert area I carry a minimum of an extra gallon of water per person. Two extra gallons wouldn't be unreasonable. Minimum recommended for most climates is one quart per person and you should carry more, if possible. Always carry some water with you. In an emergency, for immediate medical or other uses, you may not have time to procure it, even in areas where it is readily available.

Packaged waterYou can use prepackaged water in 125 ml flexible pouches, "flex-paks," (4.227 fl. oz./ 1/8 qt.) (S.O.S. Food Labs and Mainstay are two of the most commonly available brands, but there are dozens worldwide that package this way), 250 ml "Aqua Blox" aseptic packages identical in concept to the boxes juice and other drinks are packaged in, including a little straw attached to each box, (8.45 fl. oz. / 1/4 qt.) or bottled water off the grocery store shelf in plastic bottles.

One disadvantage to the flex-paks and the Aqua Blox, is they have a tendency to leak when squeezed or crushed, as might occur when tightly packed in a survival kit. This is particularly a problem with the flex-paks. Best to vacuum pack them or place them inside a Zip-Lock style plastic bag. The flex-paks are also very easily punctured, so be careful how you pack and handle them. Finally, once opened, the flex-paks must be consumed or the water stored in another container because they cannot be resealed. One option is to pack the flex-packs inside a large mouth water bottle for protection, which also gives you a suitable water container with little wasted space.

TAqua Bloxhe Aqua Blox have sturdier packaging than even the conventional aseptic boxed liquids and thus stand up to abuse far better than the flex-packs. Their boxed shape makes them much easier to pack in most kits. The included straw makes is far less likely that any precious water will be wasted. While they cannot technically be resealed, we have found that a piece of duct tape does a fair improvised job of resealing the package. For most uses, we prefer the Aqua Blox to the flex-paks, but they do generally cost a bit more.

Both the flex-paks and Aqua Blox are USCG Approved with five year shelf lives.

Alternatively, you can use canteens or similar containers. These can be filled at home. Tap water or purified "bottled" water is generally good for six months to a year's storage if kept away from the light. Or, you can sterilize the water and storage containers like done for home canning, assuming they will hold a vacuum, and it will last for years, just as the prepackaged water will.

An easier way to sanitize the containers is to use an Iodophor solution. Iodophor solutions are iodine based sanitizers commonly used in the food and beverage industry and a typical 4 oz. bottle will be more than enough and it is inexpensive. Almost any supplier of home brewing equipment and supplies will have it in stock and will be able to offer tips on proper dilution of the concentrate and contact time, which generally only takes a few minutes.
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Gary LaPook

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Re: Water in the Lifeboat
« Reply #35 on: April 07, 2012, 06:21:22 PM »

Being in an "airtight" container merely slows the process, if the water has enough residual contaminates in it, they will grow. And something I forgot to mention, as these organisms use up the oxygen and food available... they become canabalistic and eat each other... still thirsty?

Brad
Does this mean that I have to throw out all those bottles of Perrier that I have in the garage as part of my doomsday preparation, I know they have been out there more than a year?

gl
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Malcolm McKay

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Re: Water in the Lifeboat
« Reply #36 on: April 07, 2012, 07:01:18 PM »


Does this mean that I have to throw out all those bottles of Perrier that I have in the garage as part of my doomsday preparation, I know they have been out there more than a year?

gl

I have never equated stockpiling Perrier with creating doomsday - this opens a whole new can of worms, or bottle of microbes.  ;)
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Gary LaPook

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Re: Water in the Lifeboat
« Reply #37 on: April 07, 2012, 07:40:27 PM »


I have never equated stockpiling Perrier with creating doomsday - this opens a whole new can of worms, or bottle of microbes.  ;)
Not "creating" doomsday, just preparing to deal with it if it happens.

gl
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Irvine John Donald

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Re: Water in the Lifeboat
« Reply #38 on: April 07, 2012, 08:16:06 PM »

Well Gary. You're right to be prepared. After all it is 2012 :-)
Respectfully Submitted;

Irv
 
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Malcolm McKay

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Re: Water in the Lifeboat
« Reply #39 on: April 07, 2012, 08:44:21 PM »

Well Gary. You're right to be prepared. After all it is 2012 :-)

That explains it!!!!!!!

Earhart and Noonan were abducted by Mayans and flown to the Yucatan Peninsula in a Mayan Air Force Flying Burrito. 
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Irvine John Donald

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Re: Water in the Lifeboat
« Reply #40 on: April 07, 2012, 10:07:49 PM »

Malcolm!!  Shhhh!  Don't let the story out. Everyone's enjoying the TIGHAR hypothesis!!
Respectfully Submitted;

Irv
 
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Brad Beeching

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Re: Water in the Lifeboat
« Reply #41 on: April 08, 2012, 12:55:31 AM »

Quote
Both the flex-paks and Aqua Blox are USCG Approved with five year shelf lives.

I don't believe these were available in 1929. I'm sure by now we can trust everything we read on a package label. Why not buy some to go along with your Perrier and let us know how the water looks under a micoscope after 5 years. Or better yet, throw em under a sail covered awning on Niku for 8 years and give us a report on how it turned out. ;D

Quote
Tap water or purified "bottled" water is generally good for six months to a year's storage if kept away from the light.
Exactly.

I contend that the crew of the Norwich City wasn't too concerned about what microbes may have been lurking in the water they used to fill the emergency water casks with in 1929. Unless they had a way to sterilize the water, sterilize a wooden cask, make it airtight and then insure that the cask didn't leak from both directions for 8 years in an equatorial climate, battered by ocean storms (if not seawater) sun and wind (which tends to dry out wood) If there was any water in the casks at all it would have been non-potable. If your Perrier was filled strait from your city tap with no alteration by you I would consider emptying, disinfecting the bottles with a good disinfectant ( you mentioned Iodifor) and refilling the bottles with laboratory grade H20. And if you can keep them from the atmosphere you should be fine for a while.

If a person wants to store water for long term, use a good Food Grade glass container. Be sure to NOT use leaded glass as over time the lead will leach out of the glass and contaminate the water. You can use food grade plastics as well, buy stay away from containers that stored butter or fats in them as they too will leach out oils and contaminate the water. Home Depot buckets are not food grade and are permeable, (oxygen passes through the plastic). They also will leach out PCB's and other toxins into whatever you have stored in them.

Brad
Brad

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Malcolm McKay

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Re: Water in the Lifeboat
« Reply #42 on: April 08, 2012, 01:35:38 AM »

Something else to consider, diarrhea from drinking bad water in the conditions that exist on Niku is not the only issue. The simple act of eating exacerbates the dehydration. My survival manual and some other info I have read, all state the same thing, find a clean source of water first before eating. It seems possible that the castaway could have eaten themselves to death. I am a land lubber so bear with me. What is the salt content of the items the castaway appeared to be consuming, and could it have played a roll in how fast the castaway perished?

Brad

Now I'll make this clear from the start I am not a marine biologist or an ornithologist, simply an old archaeologist  :) . As far as I know salt does not accumulate in the bodies of marine creatures like shellfish, crabs or fish or in the bodies of birds. The reason being if I remember correctly is that these creatures secrete the salt in one way or another. If they retained the salt they would also retain the toxic substances that are dissolved in salt water. Seawater is not just a simple mixture of water and sodium chloride, it also contains other dissolved minerals a number of which if allowed to accumulate would like sodium chloride eventually prove fatal. There is in animal flesh a natural salt content anyway but this is not of the same strength as the salt in sea water.

Apropos the loss of bodily salt through sweating and subsequent dehydration this is, as I understand it, a process of losing electrolytes which are a range of salts including others that are not our familiar table salt - sodium chloride. As this wikipedia article explains it far better than I can I'll just link it here - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electrolytes . It is the loss of these electrolytes which are the main cause of fatality in dehydration.

Coming back to the diet available to Earhart and Noonan the principle cause it appears of any diarrhea they might have suffered would be what the evidence available from the Norwich City wreck survivors and the natives on the 1937 expedition tells us, which was eating the coconut crabs and shellfish. If you were to add sea birds to this then you have a dietary disaster. And eating coconuts would not help either - the last thing someone with diarrhea needs is fibre to prevent constipation. 

I would suspect that the only birds that Earhart and Noonan would have been able to catch would have been chicks or nestlings which at that stage in their growth are being fed by their parents and rapidly accumulating fat in preparation for their adult lives as ocean wanderers. These chicks would have a very high fat and oil content in their bodies which although nutritious would also be the last thing anyone with dysentery or diarrhea should eat. To put it bluntly you would only be borrowing the meal for a few minutes - straight through.  :(
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Chris Johnson

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Re: Water in the Lifeboat
« Reply #43 on: April 08, 2012, 10:00:05 AM »

Quote
I would suspect that the only birds that Earhart and Noonan would have been able to catch would have been chicks or nestlings which at that stage in their growth are being fed by their parents and rapidly accumulating fat in preparation for their adult lives as ocean wanderers. These chicks would have a very high fat and oil content in their bodies which although nutritious would also be the last thing anyone with dysentery or diarrhea should eat. To put it bluntly you would only be borrowing the meal for a few minutes - straight through. 

I could be wrong but due to lack of contact with humans the birds on Gardner/Niku are apparently more approachable so could be caught whilst nesting on the ground.

Is there evidence that the NC crew ate coconut or other crabs? to facilitate diarrhea!
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Jeff Victor Hayden

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Re: Water in the Lifeboat
« Reply #44 on: April 08, 2012, 10:13:54 AM »

Quote
I could be wrong but due to lack of contact with humans the birds on Gardner/Niku are apparently more approachable so could be caught whilst nesting on the ground.

The demise of the Dodo Chris
This must be the place
 
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