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Author Topic: Deserted Island, Castaways, Survival  (Read 250644 times)

Ric Gillespie

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Re: Deserted Island, Castaways, Survival
« Reply #45 on: February 18, 2012, 06:10:27 AM »

There were some provisions left behind by the NC survivors, and I think some Casks of water were on the list.

Unfortunately there is no list - just a general comment that the unused provisions were left on the island for the use of any possible future castaways.  But the inclusion of casks of fresh water seems like reasonable speculation.
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Harry Howe, Jr.

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Re: Deserted Island, Castaways, Survival
« Reply #46 on: February 18, 2012, 11:07:06 AM »


Casks of water, great.  Not too fresh afternearly 8 years 1929-1937, but depending on how they were placed may have collected water from the many storms that might have occurred in that time.  At any rate, would certainly have eased any "panic" over finding water in a hurry.   Thoughts?
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Andrew M McKenna

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Re: Deserted Island, Castaways, Survival
« Reply #47 on: February 19, 2012, 08:24:39 AM »

Tom asks:
Andrew---I'm a little curious. At the reef where the Norwich City is, you said the you dove that area where the stern was/wasnt, but there didnt appear to be any reef damage like I would have thought if the stern of a ship were to have slid down the reef slope. So I guess my question would be, did it apear to be 'new' growth, or say 65 year growth that could have 'filled in' the crevass? I would think that several tons of steel would make a big mess of a reef. OR, was the stern far enough away from the reef line to have dropped off into the deep water without damaging the reef?

Hard to say.  I would imagine as you do that the back end of a ship would leave a pretty wide swath of crushed coral, but we just don't know how it happened.  Could be that the shape of the hull caused it to glide off away from the face of the reef in some manner, leaving almost no trace, or who knows what.  We cannot test for it at this point.  Even if some of the coral had been taken out, I think it would have largely been just the stuff along the surface of the slope of the reef, not really leaving any deep gash.  Reefs are pretty hard after all once you get past the loose stuff on the surface, so after another 60+ years, the continued growth in the swath, and next to the swath might be nearly impossible to discern the difference.  Hard to say.

As for intact, it is my personal opinion that some stuff got broken off, but that the main body of the aircraft probably floated off before sinking, and is down there pretty much in one piece.  The stuff that got broken off, whatever it was, is the stuff that the colonists saw and later found.  Just an opinion, I just don't see how the cabin full of empty fuel tanks wouldn't float for at least a bit.

Andrew
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Irvine John Donald

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Re: Deserted Island, Castaways, Survival
« Reply #48 on: February 19, 2012, 08:56:59 AM »

Andrew, as you have been there I wonder if you have thought about the surf and current effect on a floating Electra?  This is thread drift and perhaps should be in its own thread. I believe I have read elsewhere in this forum that the empty tanks would have kept the aircraft afloat for a period of time. I will look for those posts and reference them. For now I wonder if a floating Electra could be pulled or pushed a long way from the reef edge before sinking. or would the surf keep it close to the reef edge until it sank.
Respectfully Submitted;

Irv
 
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John Joseph Barrett

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Re: Deserted Island, Castaways, Survival
« Reply #49 on: February 19, 2012, 09:19:24 AM »

I think, in my humble opinion, that whether the plane could have floated any distance from the reef depends entirely on how it went off of the reef (presuming that it was there in the first place). If it was picked up by a surge of the surf and carried off in one piece, sure it could have floated for some time with empty tanks. If it was slowly pulled over the edge, catching on things as it did so, I would think that it probably got beat up to the point that it didn't have a whole lot of buoyancy left in it and probably sank fairly quickly. Keep in mind, those tanks were built to old the pressure of the fuel that they contained which pushed from the inside. Submerge them a bit and I'm not sure they would do real well before imploding. From some of the presumed radio messages, I infer that the plane was slowly drawn to the reef edge and then over the side, not so much floated away. I agree with Harry's thought, if I couldn't move the plane to higher ground, like the beach, I would certainly do all I could to at least keep it from moving toward deeper water. I've seen photos of fire gutted ships and have to wonder if there would have been enough line left on Norwich City to string together enough length to secure the plane. I guess the NC crew may have taken line with them when they abandoned ship, but, as that wasn't the smoothest of operations, doubt they did so, unless they either threw it overboard or retrieved it from the surf after they made it ashore. How long of a line would it take to reach from where it is believed the plane landed to something solid, like a tree? From the pictures it looks like a fair distance. Oh to have a time machine. LTM- John
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Irvine John Donald

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Re: Deserted Island, Castaways, Survival
« Reply #50 on: February 19, 2012, 09:38:00 AM »

Thanks John

The stories you read in this forum and elsewhere all suggest that it's not easy to get ashore with a boat due to surf action.  I have read that the current comes around the tip of the island and would have pushed the Electra off the reef edge while the pictures of the surf come head onto the beach. I would imagine that this creates the problems with getting a boat ashore. Andrew has been swimming in this and can likely shed some light on it. I think the Electra might be pushed off the reef in the direction of the current and the surf would keep pushing it to shore. Hence the Electra would be pushed down the shore line and getting holed each time the surf pushed it against the ref edge. So how far down the shore would it travel before sinking?  Was that the premise used in the ROV search?  Sorry but this needs to go over to the ROV thread. I will post this over there as well and not continue this train of thought here.
Respectfully Submitted;

Irv
 
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Harry Howe, Jr.

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Re: Deserted Island, Castaways, Survival
« Reply #51 on: February 19, 2012, 10:40:46 AM »


10-4 on the time machine.   v>c (speed of light)
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Jeff Victor Hayden

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Re: Deserted Island, Castaways, Survival
« Reply #52 on: February 19, 2012, 10:59:32 AM »


Casks of water, great.  Not too fresh afternearly 8 years 1929-1937, but depending on how they were placed may have collected water from the many storms that might have occurred in that time.  At any rate, would certainly have eased any "panic" over finding water in a hurry.   Thoughts?
Could still be used Harry if boiled
http://www.wikihow.com/Store-Water-Long-Term
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Jeff Victor Hayden

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Re: Deserted Island, Castaways, Survival
« Reply #53 on: February 19, 2012, 11:27:11 AM »

Post removed for excessive quotation.  MXM
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« Last Edit: February 19, 2012, 09:03:28 PM by Martin X. Moleski, SJ »
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Harry Howe, Jr.

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Re: Deserted Island, Castaways, Survival
« Reply #54 on: February 19, 2012, 12:09:56 PM »


Chris
Yes indeed, boiled, filtered thru the parachute silk (or  chamois), aerated by pouring from one container to another several times. 
Just the discovery of cask(s) of water would remove some anxiety and allow them to focus on something else, like getting shelter from the heat/sun during the day.  I'm assuming that they stayed in the plane at night, depending on the tide of course.
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Jeff Victor Hayden

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Re: Deserted Island, Castaways, Survival
« Reply #55 on: February 19, 2012, 01:00:40 PM »

"I'm assuming that they stayed in the plane at night, depending on the tide of course."
Good thinking Harry, that's one way to escape from those giant crabs and get some sleep. The survivors from the SS Norwich city had trouble keeping them at bay at night. Had to build make-shift barriers and a fire to keep them away.
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Tom Swearengen

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Re: Deserted Island, Castaways, Survival
« Reply #56 on: February 19, 2012, 03:17:37 PM »

wrong thread BUT---Andrew's theory of an intact (well almost intact) electra may be correct. And, Rics psychic friend in Austraila or New Zealand, may also be 'kind of' correct. The theory of the fuel tanks giving the electra bouyancy 'might' just have allowed it to survive on the submerged part of the reef, away from the Norwich City wreckage.
I'm not sure of the psychic's location distance from the suspected landing / reef submergence area, but maybe 3/4 of a mile? With the depth of the water, the currents in the area, and the other natural subsurface occurances ( earthquakes in Fiji, Samoa, etc) it may be possible for the plane to have shifted and been carried by currents over a period of time, to have been deposited in the psychics location.   
TIGHAR wont know the answers to any of those questions, or theories, until it returns to Nikumaroro, and can do an extensive search.
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Harry Howe, Jr.

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Re: Deserted Island, Castaways, Survival
« Reply #57 on: March 07, 2012, 03:02:07 PM »


Chris
I keep remembering that FN was a certified sea Captain, a certified pilot, and an expert navigator, as well as a forerunner in the art of setting up air routes for the Pan Am Clippers to China from SF.

As such, it doesn't take  a giant leap to think that he was aware of survival techniques including the way to get/make drinkable water.

assuning the landing was where we think it was, they prolly made their zero day camp near the plane and the Norwich City, using the plane to radio from and sleep in at night.  It's hard to believe that they wouldn't have found the NC survivor's camp.  Until the plane went over the edge, prolly on the night of July 7th, there wouldn't have been any reason for them to move to another camp, except to recononiter their environment.
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Dan Swift

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Re: Deserted Island, Castaways, Survival
« Reply #58 on: March 07, 2012, 09:40:32 PM »

Figuring the days they stayed by the plane (guestimate) and then the number of "fire features" (as Jeff pointed out to keep the Crabs away), may give us a pretty good idea of how long the Castaway(s) survived on Niku.  Of course, there may be more "fire features" near the landing area that have not been discovered....and may never be.  But, one per night at "7 Site" may be telling. 
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Harry Howe, Jr.

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Re: Deserted Island, Castaways, Survival
« Reply #59 on: March 07, 2012, 10:02:03 PM »


My guess is, and it is just that, a guess, that the plane went over the reef edge after or during the last credible post loss radio transmission on the evening of Wednesday 7/7/37.  They were still at a camp near the landing area, perhaps the NC survivors camp.

That brings up the question again of why they didn't see/hear the search plane when it flew over at mid-day  on Friday 7/9/37?
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