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Author Topic: aircraft parts villagers had?  (Read 74091 times)

Richard C Cooke

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Re: aircraft parts villagers had?
« Reply #45 on: January 01, 2012, 04:31:14 PM »

To me, the item of wreckage looks like the trailing edge of an aircraft wing.  Wooden decking isn't usually tapered.  I wonder where the photo was taken?
Judging from the corral formations that looks like a wing from a much bigger plane than an Electra.  Maybe one of the many B29s than went down in the Pacific.

rc
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Irvine John Donald

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Re: aircraft parts villagers had?
« Reply #46 on: January 01, 2012, 07:57:39 PM »

Richard, how can you judge the wing size from the coral formations? I can't see anything in the image to provide scale.
Respectfully Submitted;

Irv
 
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Chris Johnson

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Re: aircraft parts villagers had?
« Reply #47 on: January 02, 2012, 06:22:40 AM »

Still looks like 3 peices of plank, tounge and grooved with a blue finish.
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Richard C Cooke

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Re: aircraft parts villagers had?
« Reply #48 on: January 02, 2012, 07:08:37 AM »

Richard, how can you judge the wing size from the coral formations? I can't see anything in the image to provide scale.
I have done @ 500 dives in tropical waters, including 50 off Rabaul.  Coral is a made up of a lot of small things put together, when it gets bigger it adds more components, like leggo, for example where a huge structure is made up of lots of similar size parts.  On top of the wing the brain coral is made up of nodules and the fan coral below is made up of little branches, from which I'm guessing that picture is at least 15 by 20 ft.

rc
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John Ousterhout

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Is it an aircraft wing, or tongue and groove planking
« Reply #49 on: January 02, 2012, 09:00:41 AM »

Although not directly related to the thread topic, this is an interesting object to analyze.
There are specific parts of the picture that make me think it's a wing, rather than T&G planking:
The object appears to be quite thick some distance back from the nearest edge, and thicker at the left side of the picture than the right side, giving it a tapered appearance.  The sunlit top surface and shaded bottom surface do not appear to be parallel, but form a thick wedge that tapers in two directions, like a wing.  This would be an unusual shape for planked construction - perhaps a very thick awning or high-dive platform?  The marine growths suggest a long time under water, so if it's a planked structure, when did it become submerged, and what was its original purpose?
The object appears to have a rather sharp edge, nearest the camera, like the trailing edge of a wing, but unlike normal planking.
The object has what appears to be a joint or line approximately parallel to the sharp edge, consistant with the small gap between an aileron and wing surface (or T&G planking).
A second, less promenant line parallels the first, consistant with a dive brake panel (or T&G planking).
A geometrically regular object projects at an angle from the bottom of the object right of center, giving the appearance or a rod or shaft.  This might be the remains of an aileron counterbalance weight, the end of which is missing.  If the object is a planked construct, this might be a structural element.
What would explain the presence of a planked object on a reef?  What would explain an aircraft wing on a reef?  In the south pacific, both objects would represent imported objects.  A planked tapered structure seems less likely to be present on a coral reef than a WWII aircraft wing.  OTOH, if the photo was taken in the Bahamas, then the opposite might be true.
Would a wooden structure have bare patches like the ones visible on the object?  Isn't the pattern more commonly seen on aluminum aircraft from WWII?
To duplicate the shape with planking would create a shape that looks very much like part of an aircraft wing.  Not impossible, but not likely to be present on a reef, to my very limited knowledge.
It seems likely that somewhere out there in cyberspace is a photo by the same diver of the entire object, not just the awning/diving-platform/dive-bomber object.  Perhaps Richie can help find it? (I'm on slow dial-up, and photo searches are unbearably slow for me. Sorry)

<later addition: http://s3.footagesearch.com/stills/JV04_026.jpg is a photo showing the trailing edge of a wing.  Not a great comparision, but the best I could find on short notice.>
Cheers,
JohnO
 
« Last Edit: January 02, 2012, 09:52:02 AM by John Ousterhout »
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richie conroy

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Re: aircraft parts villagers had?
« Reply #50 on: January 02, 2012, 09:39:46 AM »

i'll try to find a full image of object if i can,

i find lots off diffrent things trawling the net for instance this image which is not the electra but what caught my eye was there seems to be numbers on the right wing
We are an echo of the past


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Martin X. Moleski, SJ

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Re: aircraft parts villagers had?
« Reply #51 on: January 02, 2012, 10:27:45 AM »

May be an interesting visual exercise for field searchers.

TIGHAR has been blessed with an extraordinary collection of divers who are well-versed in identifying underwater objects.

See, for example, the ten photo albums from the most recent Devastator dives.

It is difficult to prove some negative statements, but I'm inclined to believe that there is no wing section on the reef next to Niku or in the lagoon that resembles the original photo in any way.  TIGHAR has done a good search.  If a wing was in the 40-meter depth that they have covered in detail, the divers would have seen it; they did not see it; I conclude that no such wing section is there. 

I presume the ROV also went over that same ground, though I don't have any references to back up this assumption.
LTM,

           Marty
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richie conroy

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Re: aircraft parts villagers had?
« Reply #52 on: January 02, 2012, 11:09:30 AM »

its defo not on gardner, i just posted it because it claimed to be on the reef of gardner an who better to find out if it true or not than Tighar
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Irvine John Donald

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Re: aircraft parts villagers had?
« Reply #53 on: January 02, 2012, 11:58:49 AM »

Richard, how can you judge the wing size from the coral formations? I can't see anything in the image to provide scale.
I have done @ 500 dives in tropical waters, including 50 off Rabaul.  Coral is a made up of a lot of small things put together, when it gets bigger it adds more components, like leggo, for example where a huge structure is made up of lots of similar size parts.  On top of the wing the brain coral is made up of nodules and the fan coral below is made up of little branches, from which I'm guessing that picture is at least 15 by 20 ft.

rc

Thanks for that info Richard.  Based on your experience can you also "age" the growth?  Thanks.  I also do not believe it is from Gardner.  Something like that would likely stand out dramatically from all of the other formations on the ocean bed.  As Marty said, experienced divers have given a thorough search.  After all thats a big part of the hypothesis explaining where the Electra is.

I don't believe there has been a categorization of the evidence obtained from land searches versus ocean or subsurface searches.  I recall the video images form the ROV last year showing a "wire" that could have been a type of coral but don't recall any other evidence from the ocean.  I think most of it comes from land searches such as around the villages and Seven sites. 
Respectfully Submitted;

Irv
 
« Last Edit: January 02, 2012, 12:10:06 PM by Irvine John Donald »
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Irvine John Donald

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Re: aircraft parts villagers had?
« Reply #54 on: January 02, 2012, 12:35:54 PM »

This whole thread has made me think about the evidence gathered.  It seems to fall into two categories.  We know that AE and FN did not make Howland and therefore ended up "somewhere".  Post Loss radio signals can't be denied. (Gary??).

The first category of evidence suggests "Gardner Island".  Available terrain for a landing. Location on the LOP.  Fuel and time.  The second category of evidence attempts to prove that Gardner was the island.  Bones, pictures, Seven Site evidence.   

The first category of evidence is not required to prove they landed and died on Gardner.  It is just to help pinpoint a location that was the most likely so TIGHAR could search there.  The term "Smoking Gun" has been used to suggest we need this type of evidence to prove the hypothesis.  If the sonar search suggested for this year's expedition does not produce the "smoking gun" evidence then what?  It doesn't mean the TIGHAR hypothesis is wrong.  Just that too much time has passed for the smoking gun evidence to survive or that it just hasn't been found yet.  In the meantime there is further land searching to do.  Could the smoking gun in fact be on the Seven site? 

Marty, what has the board of directors decided to do with the land search component this year?  While I am sure that any expedition to Gardner is expensive, is land searching more expensive (labour intensive) than ocean sub surface searching (expense of tehnology)?  Where will TIGHAR get the biggest bang for its donated buck?  Is this thread drift or somewhat on topic?
Respectfully Submitted;

Irv
 
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Richard C Cooke

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Re: aircraft parts villagers had?
« Reply #55 on: January 02, 2012, 02:33:40 PM »

Richard, how can you judge the wing size from the coral formations? I can't see anything in the image to provide scale.
I have done @ 500 dives in tropical waters, including 50 off Rabaul.  Coral is a made up of a lot of small things put together, when it gets bigger it adds more components, like leggo, for example where a huge structure is made up of lots of similar size parts.  On top of the wing the brain coral is made up of nodules and the fan coral below is made up of little branches, from which I'm guessing that picture is at least 15 by 20 ft.

rc

Thanks for that info Richard.  Based on your experience can you also "age" the growth?  Thanks.  I also do not believe it is from Gardner.  Something like that would likely stand out dramatically from all of the other formations on the ocean bed.  As Marty said, experienced divers have given a thorough search.  After all thats a big part of the hypothesis explaining where the Electra is.
It looks much too young to be even WWII, compare it to the B25 picture.  Large parts of the wing have just a thin film of marine life on it, but after 74 years it should be covered, especially since its quite shallow.  Colors fade with depth, but there is a bit of sunlight and color on the top of the wing, so its in about 15m of water.

rc
« Last Edit: January 02, 2012, 02:40:40 PM by Richard C Cooke »
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Irvine John Donald

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Re: aircraft parts villagers had?
« Reply #56 on: January 02, 2012, 06:59:33 PM »

Thanks Richard. I thought it wasn't covered enough but don't have the experience to say for sure.

Jeff, did the Electra have fabric covered panels as you describe?  Surely the fabric wouldn't last long?
Respectfully Submitted;

Irv
 
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Martin X. Moleski, SJ

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Re: aircraft parts villagers had?
« Reply #57 on: January 02, 2012, 07:16:10 PM »

Marty, what has the board of directors decided to do with the land search component this year?

I haven't heard, but, even if I had, I wouldn't say.

Ric Gillespie and Pat Thrasher are the chief executives for TIGHAR.  They handle all of the rollouts for Niku expeditions.  Here is what they've released so far for Niku VII.

The way these things go, what they will actually do will depend on funds that they raise.  Expeditions have expanded and contracted in the past as the economic realities fluctuated.  If there is enough money, I speculate that they might open up the expedition to extending Rolling Thunder at the Seven Site.  The announced focus at this time seems to me to be just the offshore deepwater search.

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While I am sure that any expedition to Gardner is expensive, is land searching more expensive (labour intensive) than ocean sub surface searching (expense of tehnology)?

I don't have any facts in hand.  I imagine that the costs of the high-tech stuff are higher than the cheerful hand labor of our archeological team.  One problem is space on board the expedition boat(s). 

Quote
Where will TIGHAR get the biggest bang for its donated buck?

I don't know.  We know that there is still lots of archeology to do at the Seven Site.  We don't know that there is anything to find underwater.

Quote
Is this thread drift or somewhat on topic?

I suppose it is thread drift.  Feel free to start new threads when you think it's appropriate.  Anyone who can post can start a new thread.
LTM,

           Marty
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Irvine John Donald

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Re: aircraft parts villagers had?
« Reply #58 on: January 02, 2012, 07:31:32 PM »

Thanks Marty. I appreciate your comments.
Respectfully Submitted;

Irv
 
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Shaw Durman

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Re: aircraft parts villagers had?
« Reply #59 on: January 04, 2012, 03:05:46 PM »

Has asking the Woodshole Oceanographic Institute for assistance been considered? Sure if you got Dr Robert Ballard on the underwater search, he could get good results and they may even just do it for the publisity and discovery channel program! :-D
He's the guy who found the Titanic, Bismark and Yorktown.
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