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Author Topic: Seven Site  (Read 171906 times)

Joe Cerniglia

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Re: Seven Site
« Reply #60 on: November 17, 2012, 05:00:06 PM »

I'm thinking it was simply a facetious remark. I don't begrudge anyone's right to have a sense of humor.  I need to learn to relax a bit sometimes and remind myself this isn't The Paper Chase, and I'm no John Houseman.  Facts do need substantiation, always. But I could also learn more patience.  Words to live by.  I usually do not like to use emoticons, but just once I will break my own rule.   8)

Peace

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tom howard

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Re: Seven Site
« Reply #61 on: November 17, 2012, 06:17:38 PM »

The reason I ask is I believe the question of cooking fish was asked to one of the islanders and they replied to paraphrase badly "the same way anyone cooks a fish, in a pan"... except without a nice Maytag stainless range of course and electricity.

Can you provide the source of the quotation above?

Joe Cerniglia
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To be fair Mr Cerniglia I think Tom is just using a figure of speech. I imagine he is just paraphrasing the way in which a question was asked not the exact words. Such as the professor asking a person how do they cook their fish but not quoting the exact words of the question. I could be wrong though  :D


Very astute Dan, I was using a figure of speech, with attempted humor. I forget humor doesn't tend to translate well to others in writing.
The point I was trying to point out was that in an interview in 1997 the islander was saying he cooked fish the same way anybody cooks a fish.

This is Tighar Tracks Sept 1997, Ric and another gentlemen interviewing an ex-islander.
http://tighar.org/Publications/TTracks/13_1/pieces.html

Partial transcript on the way polynesians would cook their fish-

RG: Did the people on the island use metal for cooking? How would they cook a fish? 
PS: There are two ways to cook a fish. First you can bake it in an oven. Or, you can cook it on top of a piece of iron with a fire underneath. This is a very good way to cook a fish. 



Also note the 1996 report from Dirk Ballendorf( sorry couldn't attach it, it is on the Tighar site map, titled Solomonsreport PDF) questioning islanders as well. At one point he asks an old woman about fishing, and she is amused about the question of catching fish and how the men got their lures. She "made an amused face, as if to say 'what a dumb question'".....

These were smart people, not without a sense a humor of their own.
« Last Edit: November 17, 2012, 06:25:36 PM by tom howard »
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Dan Kelly

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Re: Seven Site
« Reply #62 on: November 17, 2012, 06:26:01 PM »


These were smart people, not without a sense a humor of their own.

LOL - you have to have a sense of humor don't you Tom.  :)
« Last Edit: November 17, 2012, 06:43:52 PM by Dan Kelly »
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Gary LaPook

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Re: Seven Site
« Reply #63 on: November 17, 2012, 09:36:05 PM »



As far as I know there are only a few ways to cook fish in the 'wilds', without pans, and that is usually to gut them perhaps, scale them usually, and run a stick through them and prop them over a fire.
Same technique since caveman days.




When I was in Munich two years ago I went to a biergarten and that is exactly how they cook the fish there, called "stecklerlfisch."

gl
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Ric Gillespie

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Re: Seven Site
« Reply #64 on: November 18, 2012, 09:01:41 AM »

This is Tighar Tracks Sept 1997, Ric and another gentlemen interviewing an ex-islander.
http://tighar.org/Publications/TTracks/13_1/pieces.html

We've learned a lot since I talked to Pulekai Songivalu on Funafuti fifteen years ago. (At that time we hadn't yet found the Seven site.) In assessing the probable origin of faunal remains found at the Seven Site we have addressed the question of cooking practices in great detail (and at considerable expense) with the help of anthropologists who have studied Pacific island cultures.  We haven't yet put the reports up on the TIGHAR website. We've only recently received Sara Collin's final report on bird bones. We'll get the reports up on the website as time permits.

The bottom line is that some of the faunal remains found at the site are consistent with known Pacific Islander preferences and practices.  Others are not and appear to be consistent with a non-Pacific Islander eating anything they can catch.

Last year's Oral History expedition to the Solomon Islands to interview surviving former-Niku residents also collected important information about cooking preferences and practices specific to the people who lived on Nikumaroro.  We're still working on pulling all of that data together but our initial impression is that the interviews support the conclusions of the anthropologists.  It's always nice when that happens.
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Dan Kelly

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Re: Seven Site
« Reply #65 on: November 18, 2012, 04:26:20 PM »


The bottom line is that some of the faunal remains found at the site are consistent with known Pacific Islander preferences and practices.  Others are not and appear to be consistent with a non-Pacific Islander eating anything they can catch.


That's interesting Mr Gillespie. Reminds me of when I was a kid going camping and hunting with my dad. One thing about what you said. I have been reading a lot of the stuff you put in the Ameliapedia and I saw where there was a USCG base on the island and I was wondering if some of what is cooked differently couldn't be from those boys having a barbecue. 
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Ric Gillespie

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Re: Seven Site
« Reply #66 on: November 18, 2012, 05:05:19 PM »

I was wondering if some of what is cooked differently couldn't be from those boys having a barbecue.

None of the Coast Guard veterans who served on the island remember having barbecues or cook-outs out in the bush.  When they did have cook-outs they ate hot dogs from the mess hall.  We, of course, cannot say that no Coastie ever caught and ate a fish out in the bush, but what we see at the Seven Site are lots of little fish, birds, clams, and some turtle being prepared and cooked in non-islander ways.

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Bill Roe

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Re: Seven Site
« Reply #67 on: November 18, 2012, 06:11:13 PM »

I was wondering if some of what is cooked differently couldn't be from those boys having a barbecue.

None of the Coast Guard veterans who served on the island remember having barbecues or cook-outs out in the bush.  When they did have cook-outs they ate hot dogs from the mess hall.  We, of course, cannot say that no Coastie ever caught and ate a fish out in the bush, but what we see at the Seven Site are lots of little fish, birds, clams, and some turtle being prepared and cooked in non-islander ways.

Um....
Didn't our Joe Cerniglia reply earlier that both locals and coasties cooked fish and posted pics of pigs strung up to be barbecued?  Just curious - who are the guys having a pig bar-b-cue?
« Last Edit: November 18, 2012, 06:45:07 PM by Bill Roe »
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Dan Kelly

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Re: Seven Site
« Reply #68 on: November 18, 2012, 07:25:16 PM »

I was wondering if some of what is cooked differently couldn't be from those boys having a barbecue.

None of the Coast Guard veterans who served on the island remember having barbecues or cook-outs out in the bush.  When they did have cook-outs they ate hot dogs from the mess hall.  We, of course, cannot say that no Coastie ever caught and ate a fish out in the bush, but what we see at the Seven Site are lots of little fish, birds, clams, and some turtle being prepared and cooked in non-islander ways.

Thanks Mr Gillespie for your reply. Excuse me if I'm making a mistake but you are saying that the archaeologists were able to say what was eaten by the natives and what was eaten by the coasties and other folk. I am envious of people who have the brains to be able to understand these things. All that stuff would just look like bones to me.   :)
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Ric Gillespie

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Re: Seven Site
« Reply #69 on: November 18, 2012, 07:46:07 PM »

I was wondering if some of what is cooked differently couldn't be from those boys having a barbecue.

None of the Coast Guard veterans who served on the island remember having barbecues or cook-outs out in the bush.  When they did have cook-outs they ate hot dogs from the mess hall.  We, of course, cannot say that no Coastie ever caught and ate a fish out in the bush, but what we see at the Seven Site are lots of little fish, birds, clams, and some turtle being prepared and cooked in non-islander ways.

Um....
Didn't our Joe Cerniglia reply earlier that both locals and coasties cooked fish and posted pics of pigs strung up to be barbecued?  Just curious - who are the guys having a pig bar-b-cue?

One photo shows a couple of Gilbertese with a pig and probably a Coastie in the background.  The other photo shows a Coasties with a pig on a spit.  We don't have any indication of pigs being eaten at the Seven Site.
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Ric Gillespie

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Re: Seven Site
« Reply #70 on: November 18, 2012, 07:55:29 PM »

Excuse me if I'm making a mistake but you are saying that the archaeologists were able to say what was eaten by the natives and what was eaten by the coasties and other folk.

That's not what I'm saying.  Nobody can say for sure who ate what.  What anthropologists who have studied Pacific island cultures can say is what looks like Pacific islander behavior and what doesn't.

I am envious of people who have the brains to be able to understand these things. All that stuff would just look like bones to me.   :)

I'd venture to say that if you spent years studying the subject you could make the same observations. 
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John Kada

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Re: Seven Site
« Reply #71 on: November 19, 2012, 12:05:55 AM »

Discussing my suggestion that the sextant box marked with the numbers 1542 and 3500 was from the USS Bushnell, Ric asks:

The box was found in the context of a castaway campsite and was assumed at the time to be associated with the castaway.  What other items found by Gallagher and TIGHAR do you see as being reasonably attributable to the Bushnell party?   

At this point I don’t know enough about the identification and dating of the artifacts found by Tighar to say whether the Bushnell is a more likely source than the Coast Guard guys, colonists, or the castaway. The possibility that some items found at the Seven Site once belonged to Paul Laxton’s wife is something that has been mentioned but which does not seem to have been discussed much, and I'm not sure why.

Certain glass artifacts, e.g., the Campana/Skat bottle and the Ointment Pot, have received a lot discussion on the forum and in Tighar reports and there has been quite a debate about who left them and when they were manufactured. The origins of other glass artifacts (e.g. the partially melted beer bottle, the partially melted green bottle, the deco-style Mennen bottle) have yet to be discussed in as much depth on the forum or in Tighar reports. For now I’ll leave it in the capable hands of Burrell, Carter, Cerniglia, Gillespie, Harris, et. al., to consider whether any of the glass items found at the Seven Site might be attributed to the Bushnell. Joe Cerniglia is working on a report about the glass artifacts I will certainly read that with great interest; I’m sure it will spur a lot more discussion on the forum.

Setting aside the glass artifacts, there is one type of artifact found at the Seven Site that I DEFINITELY think could be Bushnalia and that’s the, er, um…coprolites. I think we can be certain the Bushnell guys left scat, if not Skat, behind during their time on Gardner (I hope no one is going to post a reply stating that I need to prove this to be the case before it can be accepted as a possibility). At the moment I can’t find what Tighar has said about those coprolites so I’ll have to leave it at that. Perhaps there will now ensue five or ten forum pages of heated back-and-forth argument about things coprolitic; if so, please accept in advance my apologies for ever bringing the subject up.


Or did a Bushnell sailor happen to drop only his sextant box on the way through while not noticing the skeleton?


You’re doubtful that a Bushnell sailor could have left a sextant box near the castaway’s bones without noticing them. I don’t see why this is hard to believe. After all, the Gardner colonists found the castaway’s skull and the Benedictine bottle without (as far as we know) seeing the rest of the castaway’s remains.

May I now turn your question around? How do you explain that when Gallagher & Co. searched the castaway’s campsite they failed to find any of the glass artifacts that Tighar has found at the Seven Site? In his message to Vaskess (October 17, 1940) Gallagher says “We have searched carefully for rings, money and keys with no result”. Yet Gallagher and his searchers failed to find the partially melted beer bottle and the partially melted green bottle, and they also missed the Campana/Skat bottle, ointment pot, and the deco-style Mennen bottle. The Seven Site covers about 1000 square meters and in this area Tighar has found a number of features that it thinks match Gallagher’s description of the castaway’s camp, e.g., the skull hole, bird and turtle bones, fire remains, possibly even the Ren tree that the castaway died under, or that tree’s successor. In Gallagher’s time the Seven Site was open Buka forest, not the dense scaveola thicket that Tighar had to cut through so Gallagher would have had any easier time than you guys did seeing an artifact like the beer bottle. How is it that Gallagher & Co failed to find any of the glass objects found by Tighar at the Seven Site?
« Last Edit: November 19, 2012, 12:47:30 AM by John Kada »
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Alan Harris

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Re: Seven Site
« Reply #72 on: November 19, 2012, 02:07:28 AM »

JohnK quoted
Quote
“We have searched carefully for rings, money and keys with no result”.

Mine may be a simplistic view but Gallagher did just what he said and looked primarily for those items he considered may help identify the bones.

Certainly identification was of great interest and he reported to his superiors as to his efforts toward that.  Surely, however, the fact that his search party found shoe parts, a Benedictine bottle, some corks and chains, and the famous sextant component and sextant box indicates they were alert to, and collecting, whatever was there that was "non-natural".  IMO John has made an interesting point here.
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tom howard

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Re: Seven Site
« Reply #73 on: November 19, 2012, 05:37:38 AM »

John makes an interesting post.
Gallagher was gathering up other bottles that may be used by a castaway, but did not find
the Tighar artifacts. Or was not interested in them.

I think the answer is probably not black and white.

Chris could be right in that Gallagher was just interested in the most visible items, and perhaps was not sifting coral for fragments.
Also John's implication of Tighar artifacts not being there when Gallagher searched can also be right. The jars, ect may not have been there during Gallaghers time.
They both can be correct.

That area might be like Goodwill, "new stuff arrives daily".
You have a natural clearing, anything getting washed up during a flood might bounce off the scrub, remain next to bushes,  and remain in that clearing when the water receded.


« Last Edit: November 19, 2012, 05:52:53 AM by tom howard »
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Ric Gillespie

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Re: Seven Site
« Reply #74 on: November 19, 2012, 10:01:22 AM »

My question for Island Experts/Visitors is "does the 7 site exhibit signs of overwash?" or is this a less likley source of objects on the site.

There is no evidence of overwash at the Seven Site. This was, of course, one of the first questions we asked when we began to suspect that the Seven Site was where Gallagher found the bones.  As a matter of fact, it was among the first questions asked of Gallagher when he reported his discovery. On October 1, 1940, Resident commissioner Holland asked Gallagher:
"(a) How deep was skeleton buried when found,
(b) How far from shore,
(c) In your opinion does burial appear deliberate or could it be accounted for by encroachments of sand, etc.,"

On October 6, 1940, Gallagher replied:
"(a) Skeleton was not buried – skull was buried after discovery by natives (coconut crabs had scattered many bones),
(b) l00 feet from high water ordinary springs, [in other words, 100 feet above the highest high tides]
(c) Improbable,"

The shoreline at the Seven Site faces northeast.  When storms hit the island they come out of the west and northwest.  They clobber the west end where the shipwreck is but they don't effect the shoreline at the Seven Site.  The Seven Site also has a feature that is rather unique for Niku.  It's on a hill.  Not much of a hill, but a hill nonetheless.

The area we've excavated is more than a hundred feet above the highest of high tides but, by comparing and overlaying aerial photos taken down through the years, we can see that the island has built gradually northeastward in that area so that area we've excavated is now further from the ocean than it was in 1940.

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