Advanced search  
Pages: 1 [2]   Go Down

Author Topic: Get-there-itis  (Read 22354 times)

h.a.c. van asten

  • T4
  • ****
  • Posts: 322
Re: Get-there-itis
« Reply #15 on: June 05, 2011, 11:05:17 PM »

D.A.Atchn . G.Putnam made appointments with press representatives and messaged Amelia to be back home @ July 4th as possible. That may have been an additional stress factor among the many already present.
Logged

Mona Kendrick

  • T2
  • **
  • Posts: 71
Re: Get-there-itis
« Reply #16 on: June 06, 2011, 03:57:49 PM »

I can think of at least 2 possible reasons for discarding the trailing antenna and reel:
    1) Located as they were in the tail of the plane, their weight no doubt delayed getting the tail up during takeoff runs.  Optimal directional control, particularly when the plane was heavily loaded, demanded getting the tail up ASAP.  It's not hard to imagine that after the Luke Field groundloop, AE had directional control uppermost in her mind.
    2) When the trailing antenna was deployed it created drag and thus increased rate of fuel consumption.  With an anticipated schedule of communications to occur at least once per hour, and sometimes twice, and with each exchange of communications lasting several minutes, it adds up to a significant amount of time that the antenna would be out there causing extra fuel burn.
Logged

Martin X. Moleski, SJ

  • Administrator
  • *
  • Posts: 2901
Re: Get-there-itis
« Reply #17 on: June 06, 2011, 05:41:10 PM »

I can think of at least 2 possible reasons for discarding the trailing antenna and reel:
    1) Located as they were in the tail of the plane, their weight no doubt delayed getting the tail up during takeoff runs.  Optimal directional control, particularly when the plane was heavily loaded, demanded getting the tail up ASAP.  It's not hard to imagine that after the Luke Field groundloop, AE had directional control uppermost in her mind.
    2) When the trailing antenna was deployed it created drag and thus increased rate of fuel consumption.  With an anticipated schedule of communications to occur at least once per hour, and sometimes twice, and with each exchange of communications lasting several minutes, it adds up to a significant amount of time that the antenna would be out there causing extra fuel burn.

3) The trailing wire antenna was intended for transmitting Morse Code on 500 kcs.  Neither AE nor FN knew Morse Code.  The trailing wire antenna would have put out a big, fat, useful signal for the Itasca to use for direction finding, even if all AE and FN did was repeatedly transmit an A or an N, but that thought doesn't seem to have persuaded them of the value of bringing the mechanism, the antenna, and the transmitting key--if they thought about that issue at all.
LTM,

           Marty
           TIGHAR #2359A
 
Logged

Mona Kendrick

  • T2
  • **
  • Posts: 71
Re: Get-there-itis
« Reply #18 on: June 06, 2011, 09:32:27 PM »

[i]3) The trailing wire antenna was intended for transmitting Morse Code on 500 kcs.  Neither AE nor FN knew Morse Code.  The trailing wire antenna would have put out a big, fat, useful signal for the Itasca to use for direction finding, even if all AE and FN did was repeatedly transmit an A or an N, but that thought doesn't seem to have persuaded them of the value of bringing the mechanism, the antenna, and the transmitting key--if they thought about that issue at all.
[/quote]
[/i][/i]


     Given the risks posed by the trailing antenna and reel, it was logical to look for a way to accomplish communications and direction-finding without it.  Evidently, with the encouragement of radio technicians, she thought she'd found that solution with the reconfiguration of antennas.

LTM.
Mona


    
    
« Last Edit: June 06, 2011, 10:57:14 PM by Mona Kendrick »
Logged

Don Dollinger

  • T3
  • ***
  • Posts: 239
Re: Get-there-itis
« Reply #19 on: June 07, 2011, 09:08:08 AM »

Quote
So let me put it another way: how close can you get to an arbitrary target in the middle of nowhere, using
a sextant sitting in a planes cockpit?

The use of the sextant was only meant to get them close; close enough for them get a bearing on the Itasca to guide them in the rest of the way so it did exactly as planned.  The failure of them to get a bearing whether it be mechanical issues with the equipment, lack of knowledge concerning the equipment, or lack of knowledge concerning procedures is a totally separate issue.  "The best laid plans of mice and men ... "  But if it had gone off as planned it would not have been a feat that would have been heralded as anything miraclous, nor when viewed preflight as a feat that was doomed to failure from the get go.

LTM,

Don

Logged

david alan atchason

  • T3
  • ***
  • Posts: 113
Re: Get-there-itis
« Reply #20 on: June 07, 2011, 10:03:17 AM »

I just started reading Fred Goerner's book about AE. It is interesting, yes, but what a trip back in time for me. (1960) The respect there was for the miltary back then (Saipan), the pack of cigarettes on his desk in the photos, things like that. What the heck was the Navy doing there on Saipan? Probably some secret missle preparation. His information on FN, AE and their relationship was illuminating. Fred was a dipsomaniac and this trip with AE was his last best shot. He had been fired by Pan Am.  This trip would get his proposed navigation school off the ground. George Putnam had precluded him from participating in any post trip publicity for his benefit. AE supposedly assured him, "Don't worry Fred, you will be included, we are a team." How touching. Obviously, FN's role was to keep his mouth shut, not to rock the boat. George Putnam was a control freak. Amelia may have been independent, but when you are stuck with this kind of personality, your easiest way out is to go along. He clearly didn't care about her lack of preparation, I think he was smart enough to know it was inadequate. If it were me, I would have learned Morse Code, practiced with the RDF, coordinated with the Itasca. So I say. In hindsight.
Unfortunately, all this analysis doesn't give a clue as to where  they went. Goerner interviews Paul Mantz, her former advisor. When asked what this 157/337 business was all about, Mantz, the old pro says, "It means Fred was lost." That's my take on the situation from what little I know.
Logged

david alan atchason

  • T3
  • ***
  • Posts: 113
Re: Get-there-itis
« Reply #21 on: June 08, 2011, 02:48:15 PM »

Captain Thompson of the Itasca, according to Goerner, said "Viewed from the fact that Miss Earhart's flight was largely dependent on radio communications, her attitude toward arrangements was most casual to say the least." That sounds succinct to me.
Logged

h.a.c. van asten

  • T4
  • ****
  • Posts: 322
Re: Get-there-itis
« Reply #22 on: June 09, 2011, 09:25:30 AM »

Captain Thompson of the Itasca, according to Goerner, said "Viewed from the fact that Miss Earhart's flight was largely dependent on radio communications, her attitude toward arrangements was most casual to say the least." That sounds succinct to me.

When asked by mr.Collopy of Lae Aero before take off , mr.Noonan replied in positive sense : he would be able to find Howland comfortably . You do not say that if you do not at least have  2  navigation / approach plans : by precomputed celnav and by RDF for this event.




Logged

Alex Fox

  • T1
  • *
  • Posts: 39
Re: Get-there-itis
« Reply #23 on: June 09, 2011, 11:45:43 AM »

When asked by mr.Collopy of Lae Aero before take off , mr.Noonan replied in positive sense : he would be able to find Howland comfortably . You do not say that if you do not at least have  2  navigation / approach plans : by precomputed celnav and by RDF for this event.
Or maybe it indicates overconfidence.  The same extrapolations could be made otherwise.  For example, if he said, "I'm concerned about finding Howland," you could take that to either mean (1) he's concerned so he definitely would have 2 nagivation/approach plans, or (2) he's concerned because he doesn't have much of a backup plan. 

I don't think you can take much from that statement either way.  Assuming it's a real statement.  And assuming it didn't involve some imaginary new way of recording people's statements.
#4317
 
Logged

Ric Gillespie

  • Executive Director
  • Administrator
  • *
  • Posts: 5267
  • "Do not try. Do or do not. There is no try" Yoda
Re: Get-there-itis
« Reply #24 on: June 09, 2011, 01:12:17 PM »

The same extrapolations could be made otherwise.  For example, if he said, "I'm concerned about finding Howland," you could take that to either mean (1) he's concerned so he definitely would have 2 nagivation/approach plans, or (2) he's concerned because he doesn't have much of a backup plan. 

I don't think you can take much from that statement either way.  Assuming it's a real statement.  And assuming it didn't involve some imaginary new way of recording people's statements.

If Mr. Van Asten had cited his source for Noonan's statement you could have checked it yourself instead of speculating about what it meant.  The statement can be found in Chater's letter.

Logged

Martin X. Moleski, SJ

  • Administrator
  • *
  • Posts: 2901
Re: Get-there-itis
« Reply #25 on: June 09, 2011, 01:40:06 PM »

If Mr. Van Asten had cited his source for Noonan's statement you could have checked it yourself instead of speculating about what it meant.  The statement can be found in Chater's letter.

I think you meant James A. Collopy's letter:

"Mr. Noonan told me that he was not a bit anxious about the flight to Howland Island and was quite confident that he would have little difficulty in locating it. One can only have opinions as to what actually happened to them, but in the light of the foregoing regarding radio, and the confusion which arose during the search in connection with all the radio messages which were supposed to have emanated from the aircraft I do think that had an expert radio operator been included in the crew the conclusion may have been different. I may be wrong in this opinion as I have not yet heard if any later messages than those received by Balfour have ever been actually confirmed."
LTM,

           Marty
           TIGHAR #2359A
 
Logged

Ric Gillespie

  • Executive Director
  • Administrator
  • *
  • Posts: 5267
  • "Do not try. Do or do not. There is no try" Yoda
Re: Get-there-itis
« Reply #26 on: June 09, 2011, 02:05:45 PM »

I guess I was thinking of,
"On July 2nd a further time signal was received from Saigon at 8 a.m. when the chronometer checked the same as the previous night.
Both Captain Noonan and Miss Earhart expressed their complete satisfaction and decided to leave at ten o’clock."

Yours is better.
Logged

h.a.c. van asten

  • T4
  • ****
  • Posts: 322
Re: Get-there-itis
« Reply #27 on: June 09, 2011, 11:03:12 PM »

If Mr. Van Asten had cited his source for Noonan's statement you could have checked it yourself instead of speculating about what it meant.  The statement can be found in Chater's letter.

I think you meant James A. Collopy's letter:

"Mr. Noonan told me that he was not a bit anxious about the flight to Howland Island and was quite confident that he would have little difficulty in locating it. One can only have opinions as to what actually happened to them, but in the light of the foregoing regarding radio, and the confusion which arose during the search in connection with all the radio messages which were supposed to have emanated from the aircraft I do think that had an expert radio operator been included in the crew the conclusion may have been different. I may be wrong in this opinion as I have not yet heard if any later messages than those received by Balfour have ever been actually confirmed."

mr.Noonan´s statement to Collopy , containing that he would be able to find the island easily , was verbally ; cited somewhere in literature (Lovell ?).
Logged

h.a.c. van asten

  • T4
  • ****
  • Posts: 322
Re: Get-there-itis
« Reply #28 on: June 09, 2011, 11:37:02 PM »

     Given the risks posed by the trailing antenna and reel, it was logical to look for a way to accomplish communications and direction-finding without it.  Evidently, with the encouragement of radio technicians, she thought she'd found that solution with the reconfiguration of antennas.

LTM.
Mona

Quote EJN-2008 : "It was large scale inattentiveness letting a for that specific technical field inexperienced crew operate with an experimental RDF receiver on the island  on not with the on board of A/c´s installations compatible RDF frequencies" .

It is possible that Earhart/Noonan (who had practical RDF experience at least) have been overruled (Putnam ?) , so that they believed the Navy D-finder would work . In another article I mentioned that possibly , that was the reason to keep the Earhart Navy documents  30 years classified , so as to avoid claims of family lawyers.
« Last Edit: February 26, 2013, 09:13:06 AM by J. Nevill »
Logged
Pages: 1 [2]   Go Up
 

Copyright 2018 by TIGHAR, a non-profit foundation. No portion of the TIGHAR Website may be reproduced by xerographic, photographic, digital or any other means for any purpose. No portion of the TIGHAR Website may be stored in a retrieval system, copied, transmitted or transferred in any form or by any means, whether electronic, mechanical, digital, photographic, magnetic or otherwise, for any purpose without the express, written permission of TIGHAR. All rights reserved.

Contact us at: info@tighar.org • Phone: 610-467-1937 • Membership formwebmaster@tighar.org

Powered by MySQL SMF 2.0.15 | SMF © 2017, Simple Machines Powered by PHP