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Author Topic: Noonan Navigation Error  (Read 159521 times)

Gary LaPook

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Re: Noonan Navigation Error
« Reply #45 on: August 11, 2011, 02:52:21 AM »

It is hardly to believe that a pilot goes to a lavatory in the back of his plane by crawling over tanks , leaving all controls alone , even with automatic pilot instruments or an (unlicensed)  stand in . Pilots do not even think about that . There are good questions having no answer ...

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According to Mr. van Asten Amelia must have just pee'ed her pants.

gl
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Jeff Lange

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Re: Noonan Navigation Error
« Reply #46 on: August 11, 2011, 08:46:16 AM »

It is hardly to believe that a pilot goes to a lavatory in the back of his plane by crawling over tanks , leaving all controls alone , even with automatic pilot instruments or an (unlicensed)  stand in . Pilots do not even think about that . There are good questions having no answer ...

----------------------------------
According to Mr. van Asten Amelia must have just pee'ed her pants.

gl

Or maybe she just crossed her legs REAL hard for a very long time!

Jeff Lange
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Jeff Lange

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Martin X. Moleski, SJ

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Re: Noonan Navigation Error
« Reply #47 on: August 11, 2011, 11:42:52 AM »

I wouldn't equate "navigating the aisle" with climbing up onto gas tanks, crawling over 4 of them, lowering myself  down into  a narrow space , and getting myself into the right seat.  But then, what do I know?

I was appealing to people's experience on aircraft to deal with your remark about the speed at which the aircraft was traveling.  The speed of the aircraft is irrelevant to movement within the fuselage.  Yes, the route from front to back was awkward, but it was doable and was done routinely, both on the ground and in flight.
LTM,

           Marty
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h.a.c. van asten

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Re: Noonan Navigation Error
« Reply #48 on: August 11, 2011, 12:42:30 PM »

Mr.Lapook ,  I have recently sent to you texts from Cugle "Practical Navigation" . This manual uses the tables of H.O.no.9-II . The sunset - sunrise method for longitude appears in the  imprints  1924 through 1943 . Also in "Precision Astrolabe" by Rogers it is recorded that Portuguese navigators of early transatlantic crossing established longitude at sunrise . It is true that it is an "emergency" fashion , but if no body other than the sun is available , it is the best you have . Mr. Noonan plotted an advanced sunline over Howland in his chart , can anybody answer to the good question how he would have done that without a sunrise observation which also gave him the distance to Howland , 100 mls out @ GMT 1815  ?
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h.a.c. van asten

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Re: Noonan Navigation Error
« Reply #49 on: August 11, 2011, 12:54:36 PM »

There is no "300 nm" error in any of the computations used for EJN-2008 - 2011 articles , or elsewhere .  If you insist plse explain .
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h.a.c. van asten

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Re: Noonan Navigation Error
« Reply #50 on: August 11, 2011, 01:08:08 PM »

I went back to the " 300 mls  " error in files : there was a calculation error indeed , but only for the forum and I corrected it immediately . It was btw not me suggesting that AE did not visit A/c´s tail : after one of her long distance flights she forbade press men to come nearer ; for the same reason .
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Harry Howe, Jr.

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Re: Noonan Navigation Error
« Reply #51 on: August 11, 2011, 02:11:32 PM »


Marty
As a physicist, I fully understand the concept of motion in a moving frame of reference such as a plane moving at 2-1/2 miles per minute.  That portion of my remark was a shorthand way of categorizing the possible  pitch, yaw, and bank motions that might have been going on in the plane while FN was attempting to get to the cockpit, to say nothing of the other elements I mentioned.

For others who might be interested in the Lavatory humor, i.e. "AE must have pee'd her pants",  pilots have long been familiar with what we refer to by the acronym HERE (Human Element Range Extender).  For males it is usually a quart glass container of some kind.  For females it is something different, that can be purchased from an accessory purveyor such as "Sporty's"  I think that they are located in Cincinnati, Ohio and they have all kinds of goodies for the Complete Pilot.   LOL
No Worries Mates
LTM   Harry (TIGHAR #3244R)
 
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Alex Fox

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Re: Noonan Navigation Error
« Reply #52 on: August 11, 2011, 03:16:50 PM »

I think it's amazing we even need euphemisms or acronyms for that.  "Someone get me a piss bottle" would do just fine, in my book.

I don't know how many lurkers like me follow these threads, but it's interesting watching the back and forth between extremely intelligent minds from different industries (engineering, physics, SAR, pilots, survivalists, navigators, cartographers, reconstructionists, etc.).  At least those who speak English and make a certain degree of sense.  :D  The mystery only comes closer to being solved with better technology and this many brilliant minds discussing the possibilities.
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Harry Howe, Jr.

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Re: Noonan Navigation Error
« Reply #53 on: August 11, 2011, 04:44:23 PM »


For what it is worth, an opinion with some woulda, coulda, shoulda.

Was rhere really any “Navicational Error”?

By P&DR and CEL/ NAV they got to where RDF could have, should have allowed them to find their way to Howland.
Read the Chater Report (Tighar Archived Documents) and you will see that AE used her RDF in a test flight at Lae and was unable to find a null (get a bearing) on the Lae station.  After landing, she “assumed” that the reason was that they were too close to the station. 
It is hard to understand how a pilot, knowing that the RDF would lead them directly to Howland once they got to about 200 miles of the island, would take off on a 2500 mile trip completely over water without knowing absolutely that the RDF was working properly.

AE also , apparently, had no understanding of the limitations on the RDFs on the Itasca and onshore at Howland.  She kept asking them to take bearings on her using frequencies that their equipment couldn’t operate in.  She knew, or should have known,  this before takeoff.  She didn’t and we all know the result, they (AE and FN) didn’t find Howland.
No Worries Mates
LTM   Harry (TIGHAR #3244R)
 
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Gary LaPook

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Re: Noonan Navigation Error
« Reply #54 on: August 11, 2011, 05:41:19 PM »

I went back to the " 300 mls  " error in files : there was a calculation error indeed , but only for the forum and I corrected it immediately . It was btw not me suggesting that AE did not visit A/c´s tail : after one of her long distance flights she forbade press men to come nearer ; for the same reason .

Her prior planes were not equipped with a lavatory.

gl
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Gary LaPook

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Re: Noonan Navigation Error
« Reply #55 on: August 11, 2011, 05:45:15 PM »


Marty
As a physicist, I fully understand the concept of motion in a moving frame of reference such as a plane moving at 2-1/2 miles per minute.  That portion of my remark was a shorthand way of categorizing the possible  pitch, yaw, and bank motions that might have been going on in the plane while FN was attempting to get to the cockpit, to say nothing of the other elements I mentioned.

For others who might be interested in the Lavatory humor, i.e. "AE must have pee'd her pants",  pilots have long been familiar with what we refer to by the acronym HERE (Human Element Range Extender).  For males it is usually a quart glass container of some kind. For females it is something different, that can be purchased from an accessory purveyor such as "Sporty's"  I think that they are located in Cincinnati, Ohio and they have all kinds of goodies for the Complete Pilot.   LOL
--------------------------------------

I've used plastic gallon milk bottles on extremely long solo flights in which I couldn't leave the pilot's seat.

gl
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Martin X. Moleski, SJ

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Re: Noonan Navigation Error
« Reply #56 on: August 11, 2011, 06:44:55 PM »

As a physicist, I fully understand the concept of motion in a moving frame of reference such as a plane moving at 2-1/2 miles per minute.  That portion of my remark was a shorthand way of categorizing the possible  pitch, yaw, and bank motions that might have been going on in the plane while FN was attempting to get to the cockpit, to say nothing of the other elements I mentioned.

OK.  But those same random excursions from equilibrium happen in all aircraft.  NR16020 was designed as a 10-passenger airliner.  I expect that it would handle turbulence reasonably well--or that AE and FN would wait for clear air to make the traverse of the fuel tanks.

Quote
For others who might be interested in the Lavatory humor, i.e. "AE must have pee'd her pants",  pilots have long been familiar with what we refer to by the acronym HERE (Human Element Range Extender).  For males it is usually a quart glass container of some kind.  For females it is something different, that can be purchased from an accessory purveyor such as "Sporty's"  I think that they are located in Cincinnati, Ohio and they have all kinds of goodies for the Complete Pilot.   LOL

New Zealand's Jean Batten, "Garbo of the Skies," had a special tube in her pilot's seat.  I think AE may have had a similar rig in her Lockheed Vega.  Neither of them had an autopilot in their single engine aircraft.  I think I read that Charles Lindbergh hated having to explain how he dealt with nature's call on his flight. 
LTM,

           Marty
           TIGHAR #2359A
 
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Harry Howe, Jr.

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Re: Noonan Navigation Error
« Reply #57 on: August 11, 2011, 09:26:16 PM »


Marty
My first flight in a commercial passenger airplane was in a Trans-Texas Airways Douglas DC-3, a twin engined , low-winged monoplane, tail-dragger that could carry 20 to 25 passengers.  Its nickname was gained because of its behaviour in turbulence  "The Vomit Comet".  Oh My, the things we store away in our memory banks.

The HERE (Human Element Range Extender, a quart Jar, worked well last winter when my wife and I were stranded on I-80 in the Sierras for 9 hours because an 18 wheeler jackknifed and blocked both west-bound lanes.
No Worries Mates
LTM   Harry (TIGHAR #3244R)
 
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Gary LaPook

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Re: Noonan Navigation Error
« Reply #58 on: August 11, 2011, 10:19:55 PM »

It is hardly to believe that a pilot goes to a lavatory in the back of his plane by crawling over tanks , leaving all controls alone , even with automatic pilot instruments or an (unlicensed)  stand in . Pilots do not even think about that . There are good questions having no answer ...

----------------------------------
According to Mr. van Asten Amelia must have just pee'ed her pants.

gl

Or maybe she just crossed her legs REAL hard for a very long time!

Jeff Lange
# 0748C

--------------------------

On September 23, 1971 I was flying a Piper Cherokee 180 with three of my skydiving buddies, three guys and one girl in the plane. We took off from Kingston Jamaica on our return to Chicago. The plane did not have the range to make it all the way to Florida (even by taking an illegal shortcut over Cuba) so we had to fly around the east end of Cuba and head for Georgetown on Great Exuma Island in the Bahamas where we could take aboard some fuel. About two hours into the four and a half hour flight my buddy, Terry, sitting in the co-pilot's seat, had to "go." We searched the cabin for a proper receptacle and all we could find was an empty Coke can that Terry promptly filled to the brim. Then we realized there was nowhere that we could put the can where it wouldn't spill. The Cherokee didn't have a big enough window to allow us to drop the can into the Carribean so Terry had to carefully hold the can in his hand for the next two and a half hours until we landed in Georgetown. It was a funny situation and we all gave him a hard time about it!

gl
« Last Edit: August 11, 2011, 11:01:21 PM by Gary LaPook »
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Gary LaPook

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Re: Noonan Navigation Error
« Reply #59 on: August 11, 2011, 10:32:44 PM »

As a physicist, I fully understand the concept of motion in a moving frame of reference such as a plane moving at 2-1/2 miles per minute.  That portion of my remark was a shorthand way of categorizing the possible  pitch, yaw, and bank motions that might have been going on in the plane while FN was attempting to get to the cockpit, to say nothing of the other elements I mentioned.

OK.  But those same random excursions from equilibrium happen in all aircraft.  NR16020 was designed as a 10-passenger airliner.  I expect that it would handle turbulence reasonably well--or that AE and FN would wait for clear air to make the traverse of the fuel tanks.

Quote
For others who might be interested in the Lavatory humor, i.e. "AE must have pee'd her pants",  pilots have long been familiar with what we refer to by the acronym HERE (Human Element Range Extender).  For males it is usually a quart glass container of some kind.  For females it is something different, that can be purchased from an accessory purveyor such as "Sporty's"  I think that they are located in Cincinnati, Ohio and they have all kinds of goodies for the Complete Pilot.   LOL

New Zealand's Jean Batten, "Garbo of the Skies," had a special tube in her pilot's seat.  I think AE may have had a similar rig in her Lockheed Vega.  Neither of them had an autopilot in their single engine aircraft.  I think I read that Charles Lindbergh hated having to explain how he dealt with nature's call on his flight.

----------------------------------------------------------------

I've also flown military planes that had "pilot relief tubes." You reached under the front edge of the seat and hanging on a hook under the seat you find what is, not surprisingly, a hose with a funnel on the end. The hose goes out the bottom of the fuselage.

I also remember a flight where my co-pilot's wife was sitting in the back seat of a Grumman Tiger and she had to "go." So she took a pampers out of her baby equipment bag, slid her pants down, sat on the pampers and did her business all accompanied by laughter from the front seats.

gl
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