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Author Topic: FAQ: Colorado / Lambrecht Search, 9 July 1937  (Read 446535 times)

Gary LaPook

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Re: FAQ: Colorado / Lambrecht Search, 9 July 1937
« Reply #465 on: September 04, 2012, 03:27:11 AM »

I believe it was you, Ric, who in he past have stated that the reason that Earhart and Noonan did not construct signals designed to be seen from airplanes is because they did not expect any planes to be searching for them. You also believe that Earhart listened to broadcasts from KGMB about 8 pm Hawaiian time on both July 4th and 5th as shown by the reception of dashes in response to requests from KGMB that you believe came from Earhart. The Colorado left Pearl Harbor at 1 pm on July 3rd and Lexington sailed from San Diego on July 4th, both assigned to use their aircraft to search for Earhart. The July 3rd issue of the New York Harald Tribune carries the story of the PBY that had to return but that was standing by to try again. The front page headline of the July 4th issue's was:

Storms Balk Navy Plane on Earhart Hunt; U.S. Battleship and Aircraft Carrier Sent To Join Search as Radio Signals Die Out.

and the stories tell that the Lexington would have 54 planes and that the Colorado had already departed on July 3rd with three scout planes and would be in the search area in 72 hours. My point is that it was not a military secret that they would be using planes to search for Earhart so it would have been like sneaking a sunrise past a rooster to keep the KGMB people from knowing about the planes. It is my understanding that the broadcasts directed to Earhart included words to encourage her and to let her know that a search was being conducted and to let her know that help was on the way. Given this, it would appear extremely unlikely that the broadcasts did not include the information about the search planes. My question now is, do you have any evidence, such as transcripts or scripts, that the broadcasts from KGMB did NOT mention the fact that these two ships and their planes were on the way to search for Earhart? Absent any such evidence, and relying on your theory that Earhart responded to the KGMB broadcasts, a reasonable conclusion is that they did know planes would be searching for them and so should have constructed aerial signals IF they were on Gardner.

gl
« Last Edit: September 04, 2012, 03:36:29 AM by Gary LaPook »
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Adam Marsland

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Re: FAQ: Colorado / Lambrecht Search, 9 July 1937
« Reply #466 on: September 04, 2012, 04:03:27 AM »

OK Gary, I'll bite. Why did you include "Ronnie's" picture?
It just happened to be the ruler I had. I bought it at the Reagan Library which is about four miles from my house, its worth a visit.

gl

Hi, neighbor!  :)
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C.W. Herndon

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Re: FAQ: Colorado / Lambrecht Search, 9 July 1937
« Reply #467 on: September 04, 2012, 04:14:41 AM »

Adam, he did invite us all to come see him. Maybe if we did, and you seem to be very close distance wise, it would tire him some and he would not be awake at 2am posting here. He must need some sleep. ;)

I do get on him sometimes but I also worry about his health (don't tell him I said that ;D).
Woody (former 3316R)
"the watcher"
 
« Last Edit: September 04, 2012, 07:57:12 AM by C.W. Herndon »
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Ric Gillespie

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Re: FAQ: Colorado / Lambrecht Search, 9 July 1937
« Reply #468 on: September 04, 2012, 07:43:26 AM »

But considering that they had their wits about them as claimed by the TIGHAR theory (sending radio messages, etc.) then there is no reason for them failing to write SOS in the sand prior to trekking into the scaveola on whatever mission you believe that they were on at just the wrong moment. Also, there were two of them, "Fred, you stay out here and be ready to light our signal fire that we have set up next to the big SOS we scratched in the sand if you see a ship and I will hack my way into the damn brush to look for water, be back in an hour."

In previous posts you've gone on and on ad nauseum about how the thoroughness of the Colorado aerial search insured that AE and FN could not have been present.  Now, having been reminded about the Fossett search, it's a different story.  You've never been to the island and you - like the rest of us - have no certain knowledge of what constraints they may have been facing, and yet you feel entitled to dictate what they must do if they are there - and you can't even make up your mind about that.  Were they required to write SOS in the sand or was it okay for them to just pile up brush for a signal fire?

So they didn't need to be active at the exact instant that the planes passed over, only active at any time prior, by setting up obvious markers, and you believe that they were active and not dead or laid low prior to the Lambrecht search.

I don't know what they did, but I've been there and I know that, at least today, there's is no sand on that beach in which to write an SOS.  It's all coral rubble.  If I was a castaway hoping to catch the attention of rescuers, should any appear, I think would probably make piles of brush and driftwood on the beach that I could light as signal fires.  If I had access to some kind of accelerant (fuel or oil from the plane) I'd keep cans of it (if I had cans) and some matches (if I had matches) near the brush piles.  If my associate was hurt or dead, I wouldn't be able to stand guard by my brush piles 24/7.  I would have to go off in search of food and water.  If I happened to be deep in the jungle or forest on such an excursion when I heard planes overhead I might not be able to back to the beach in time to light my fires.  In such a case, the search pilots might take my brush piles to be "markers of some kind."

I'm not saying that's what Earhart and/or Noonan did.  I'm merely suggesting one possible scenario that seems reasonable to me.  There are, undoubtedly, others.
« Last Edit: September 04, 2012, 09:18:33 AM by Ric Gillespie »
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Monty Fowler

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Re: FAQ: Colorado / Lambrecht Search, 9 July 1937
« Reply #469 on: September 04, 2012, 09:11:54 AM »

There are also discussions about the celestial navigation methods and techniques being utilized by Amelia Earhart's navigator, Fred Noonan."

I read that on your site descripton, Gary, and have actually read quite a bit of the material there. Very informative and well thought out. But - a small but important (to me) quibble: There are no "discussions" on any of your pages. There are numerous lengthy and reasoned essays on various topics, to be sure. "Discussions" implies that there is some kind of a debate, a back-and-forth, an exchange of ideas, if you will.

Your site allows for none of that. TIGHAR's does. A small difference to some, perhaps. To me, TIGHAR's willingness to lay it all out there, the good, the bad and the ugly, is one of the cornerstones of its credibility and one of the major reasons I continue to support it in the small ways that I can. Legions of detractors to the contrary, they don't have anything to hide and would undoubtedly suck at it if they ever tried.

LTM, who still ponders the mystery of the grassy mound in Dallas,

Monty Fowler, TIGHAR No. 2189 CER 
Ex-TIGHAR member No. 2189 E C R SP, 1998-2016
 
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Ric Gillespie

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Re: FAQ: Colorado / Lambrecht Search, 9 July 1937
« Reply #470 on: September 04, 2012, 09:16:27 AM »

I believe it was you, Ric, who in he past have stated that the reason that Earhart and Noonan did not construct signals designed to be seen from airplanes is because they did not expect any planes to be searching for them.

Please let me know if I ever state the reason Earhart and Noonan did or did not do something.  No one can do that except Earhart and Noonan, and they're dead.  All I, or anyone, can do is offer speculation about their motivations.

You also believe that Earhart listened to broadcasts from KGMB about 8 pm Hawaiian time on both July 4th and 5th as shown by the reception of dashes in response to requests from KGMB that you believe came from Earhart.

Yes, I believe that because I think the historical record clearly shows it to be true.

My point is that it was not a military secret that they would be using planes to search for Earhart so it would have been like sneaking a sunrise past a rooster to keep the KGMB people from knowing about the planes.

I agree.

It is my understanding that the broadcasts directed to Earhart included words to encourage her and to let her know that a search was being conducted and to let her know that help was on the way. Given this, it would appear extremely unlikely that the broadcasts did not include the information about the search planes. My question now is, do you have any evidence, such as transcripts or scripts, that the broadcasts from KGMB did NOT mention the fact that these two ships and their planes were on the way to search for Earhart?

Your understanding is, once again, in error. The KGU and KGMB messages to Earhart, as reported in official USN and USCG radio messages during the search, asked her to send dashes in response.  For example, this transmission was sent by KGMB on the evening of July 4:
TO EARHART PLANE WE USING EVERY POSSIBLE MEANS ESTABLISH CONTACT WITH YOU IF YOU HEAR
THIS BROADCAST PLEASE COME IN ON 3105 KCS USE KEY IF POSSIBLE OTHERWISE VOICE TRANSMISSION IF YOU HEAR THIS BROADCAST TURN
CARRIER ON FOR ONE MINUTE SO WE CAN TUNE YOU IN THEN TURN CARRIER ON AND OFF FOUR TIMES THEN LISTEN FOR OUR ACKNOWLEDGEMENT AT
0645 GCT

There's good evidence that Earhart heard this and other direct requests for her to send dashes. 

I agree that it's likely that KGMB's regular news broadcasts - directed to the public, not Earhart -  included mention of the aerial search.  We have no evidence that Earhart heard those broadcasts but it certainly seems possible that she did.  If so, then it would seem reasonable that she would want to prepare some way to mark her presence to an aerial search but we have no way of knowing what she was able to do or what she decided to do.  We do know that Lambrecht saw something that he interpreted as "signs of recent habitation" that were "clearly evident" and which he, much later, recalled as being "markers of some kind."
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Brian Ainslie

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Re: FAQ: Colorado / Lambrecht Search, 9 July 1937
« Reply #471 on: September 04, 2012, 10:53:17 AM »

LTM, who still ponders the mystery of the grassy mound in Dallas,

Monty Fowler, TIGHAR No. 2189 CER
[/quote]

Maybe we should start another thread about that very interesting topic.  ;)
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dave burrell

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Re: FAQ: Colorado / Lambrecht Search, 9 July 1937
« Reply #472 on: September 04, 2012, 11:10:15 AM »

During the helicopter video it clearly shows a strip of sand beach running aroung the island and in the lagoon.
The narrator mentions it when talking about the reef.
Quote " the reef runs from the sandy beach on our right to the deep blue ocean on our left" end quote/partial paraphrase.
The narrator(a tighar member), also states upon lifting off,
Quote" notice the footprints in the SAND. Notice how they fade quickly the higher we climb"
End quote/partial paraphrase.
Therefore we have excellent video from ground level, and the narrators description of footprints in the sand.
So on that expedition, it clearly shows plenty of white sand to write a half mile long sos in the sand.
Why it was not done is baffling. It probably would be one of first things done upon knowing rescurers were searching. That is not, could have should have.
Its what any sane person would have tackled before building spears and water collection devices. An sos and they probably are found.
So Ae was either very dull, dead, lost her marbles, or was never there in my opinion.
« Last Edit: September 04, 2012, 11:13:47 AM by dave burrell »
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Dave Potratz

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Re: FAQ: Colorado / Lambrecht Search, 9 July 1937
« Reply #473 on: September 04, 2012, 12:17:06 PM »

During the helicopter video it clearly shows a strip of sand beach running aroung the island and in the lagoon.

Uh, Dave, Ric (who has been to the island MANY times) just stated it's NOT sand, but Coral rubble.

Quote
Its what any sane person would have tackled before building spears and water collection devices. An sos and they probably are found.

Again, it's important to understand that what YOU or I believe "...any sane person..." woulda shoulda coulda done is entirely irrelevant to what AE/FN MAY or MAY NOT have done within the context of their arrival.

Quote
So Ae was either very dull, dead, lost her marbles, or was never there...

Or, quite simply,  she/they were otherwise occupied and/or unable to respond.

Personally, I find it remarkable that this is so very difficult for some to accept.

LTM,
dp
« Last Edit: September 04, 2012, 05:38:22 PM by Bob Lanz »
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Ric Gillespie

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Re: FAQ: Colorado / Lambrecht Search, 9 July 1937
« Reply #474 on: September 04, 2012, 12:59:29 PM »

During the helicopter video it clearly shows a strip of sand beach running aroung the island and in the lagoon.
The narrator mentions it when talking about the reef.
Quote " the reef runs from the sandy beach on our right to the deep blue ocean on our left" end quote/partial paraphrase.
The narrator(a tighar member), also states upon lifting off,
Quote" notice the footprints in the SAND. Notice how they fade quickly the higher we climb"
End quote/partial paraphrase.

I confess to being the mysterious narrator of that video.  The sand I refer to is down near the main passage (as is clearly shown in the video).  The shoreline opposite where the object appears in the Bevington Photo is much further north and, as shown in the video, is not sand but coral rubble.  If you need further convincing, the attached photo was taken on that shoreline in 2010 (that's me in the straw hat).


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dave burrell

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Re: FAQ: Colorado / Lambrecht Search, 9 July 1937
« Reply #475 on: September 04, 2012, 01:43:16 PM »

Well great narration by the way. The wife got a laugh over the quicksand comments. Twice.
So being the narrator you saw sand. Like i see sand. I dont need a trip to an atoll to recognize a footprint in sand and that is what you said as well.

So to be clear there is sand. I read the lagoon bottom has sand, the channel or mouth has sand and it appears to be the same coloration of sand in a strip near the trees in places. It may be in a different area than camp x, but there does look to be a nice strip of sand to draw upon like a giant chalkboard in certain places. No doubt it is mostly coral as you state, and I was not questioning that.
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Ric Gillespie

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Re: FAQ: Colorado / Lambrecht Search, 9 July 1937
« Reply #476 on: September 04, 2012, 02:02:44 PM »

So to be clear there is sand.

Yes, there is sand and if Earhart could walk two miles to the Seven Site she should have been able to walk to some part of the beach where there was sand and trudge out an SOS.  She apparently didn't do that.  Maybe, instead, she built brush piles that could be set on fire as Gary suggests.  Fires should be visible from much farther away than an SOS in the sand.  A passing ship isn't going to see an SOS in the sand but they'd probably notice fires, especially if I made them real smoky with some engine oil. Yeah...I think I'd definitely go with the brush piles.  But then, I'm not Amelia Earhart.  Come to think of it, neither are you.
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dave burrell

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Re: FAQ: Colorado / Lambrecht Search, 9 July 1937
« Reply #477 on: September 04, 2012, 02:48:47 PM »

Brush on fire would be good. Lot of work though. An sos would be easy if she was fatigued or hurt. she may not have been up for hacking limbs with a pocket knife(presuming she left the hatchet).
Then again she could have made snow angels in the sand/coral while disrobed, that might have drew an answering whistle from Lt.Lambrecht  :)
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Ric Gillespie

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Re: FAQ: Colorado / Lambrecht Search, 9 July 1937
« Reply #478 on: September 04, 2012, 03:02:23 PM »

Then again she could have made snow angels in the sand/coral while disrobed, that might have drew an answering whistle from Lt.Lambrecht  :)

So can we agree that pointless opinions about love letters in the sand are a waste of everyone's time? 
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dave burrell

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Re: FAQ: Colorado / Lambrecht Search, 9 July 1937
« Reply #479 on: September 04, 2012, 03:19:26 PM »

Its all a waste of time unless it feeds the family.
But guessing about what she might have done, from choosing the reef over the lagoon, to what she was thinking about stranded or sinking as others suggest, is what keeps the mystery alive. If we had all the answers on video, it wouldnt spark the imagination. Neither would it heighten the drama if we all agreed on every fact.
I do say we might be pondering elections, or the economy or foolishness like that. :)
The mystery of "should of, would of", I dare say, is at the heart of mystery. It is amusing when people suggest we should not guess what she might have done or said. I say why not?
Would Tighar exist in it's present form without the debate?
Would discovery care about a 75 year old plane crash without the drama and intrigue and different books claiming different theories?
Would Ali be Ali without Frazier?
Mysteries are intriguing for no tangible reason. Its a deceased woman and navigator from years ago. My daughter in college barely knows the name earhart.
So I agree Talking about a sand sos, is indeed a waste of time. But a harmless waste of time from the real world.




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