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Author Topic: FAQ: Colorado / Lambrecht Search, 9 July 1937  (Read 443974 times)

Ric Gillespie

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Re: FAQ: Colorado / Lambrecht Search, 9 July 1937
« Reply #420 on: September 02, 2012, 07:51:19 AM »

Don't you? - you saw my reply to Mr Gillespie where I pointed out that TIGHAR had been searching for 23 years and found nothing that is accepted as related to Earhart.

Accepted by whom?  You?  David Billings?  Gary LaPook?  Elgen Long?  Tom Crouch? The surviving Japanese Capture fans?  Or the thousands of people who have looked at what we have found and have chosen to support our continued investigation?

Now for someone to criticise me for telling the truth and at the same time inferring that I am part of some conspiracy with David Billings borders on paranoia.

So your opinion now becomes "the truth" which must not be criticized.  No one has accused you of conspiring with Billings, but you posit an interesting hypothesis that might explain your repeated refusal to disclose the length and nature of your association with him.  A conspiracy buff would have a ball with this.       Pure paranoia, no doubt.  BTW, how long have you been corresponding with David?

Now my personal opinion is that the Electra came down at sea and sank. That puts me in the crashed and sank group with Nauticos and probably the majority of people who have been diverted by this aviation mystery.

And on what evidence do you base that opinion?  I'm aware of none.  You must have a reason for selecting that hypothesis over all the other unproven hypotheses which, according to you, have equal validity.

This is actually quite interesting.  In your world "clues" are only suitable for board games and detective fiction and any evidence that is less than rock-solid proof doesn't count as anything.  So how did you pick Crashed & Sank?  Out of a hat?

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Ric Gillespie

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Re: FAQ: Colorado / Lambrecht Search, 9 July 1937
« Reply #421 on: September 02, 2012, 09:11:47 AM »

This malcolm/billings relationship discussion has what to do with this thread ???

Perhaps you're right. Maybe it needs its own thread. Or maybe Malcolm just needs to answer the question so we can get back to discussing the Lambrecht Search. 

While we're waiting, maybe someone would like to research how many aircraft and how many eyeball-hours failed to see any trace of the Fossett crash before a hunter happened to stumble upon his wallet.
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Chris Johnson

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Re: FAQ: Colorado / Lambrecht Search, 9 July 1937
« Reply #422 on: September 02, 2012, 09:23:23 AM »

This malcolm/billings relationship discussion has what to do with this thread ???

Perhaps you're right. Maybe it needs its own thread. Or maybe Malcolm just needs to answer the question so we can get back to discussing the Lambrecht Search. 

While we're waiting, maybe someone would like to research how many aircraft and how many eyeball-hours failed to see any trace of the Fossett crash before a hunter happened to stumble upon his wallet.

Wikipedia to font of all knowledge but at least a starting point for what could be an interesting discussion (or not)
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Gary LaPook

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Re: FAQ: Colorado / Lambrecht Search, 9 July 1937
« Reply #423 on: September 02, 2012, 11:38:14 AM »

While we're waiting, maybe someone would like to research how many aircraft and how many eyeball-hours failed to see any trace of the Fossett crash before a hunter happened to stumble upon his wallet.
But Fossett was killed on impact (in spite of what some plaintiff's attorneys tried to claim, I represented the mechanic that did the maintenance on the plane) so he was not able to take any active steps that would have improved his chance of being spotted. Since the official TIGHAR position is that Earhart and Noonan were still alive at the time of the Lambrecht search, the failure of the search in the Fossett case is not analogous to the Earhart case, it's apples to oranges.

gl
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Ric Gillespie

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Re: FAQ: Colorado / Lambrecht Search, 9 July 1937
« Reply #424 on: September 02, 2012, 11:44:23 AM »

Since the official TIGHAR position is that Earhart and Noonan were still alive at the time of the Lambrecht search, the failure of the search in the Fossett case is not analogous to the Earhart case, it's apples to oranges.

So you're saying that if Earhart and Noonan were, for some reason, unable to take steps to make themselves seen they become apples rather than oranges and are analogous to the Fossett case.  I think that's a different position than the one you've taken in the past.
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Chris Johnson

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Re: FAQ: Colorado / Lambrecht Search, 9 July 1937
« Reply #425 on: September 02, 2012, 02:02:38 PM »

Wasn't the main thrust of this 30 page thread that modern or at least post 1937 SAR would give an exceptional % chance of spotting wreckage/survivours of a plane crash?

Maybe i'm just over simplifying the whole thread!
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pilotart

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Re: FAQ: Colorado / Lambrecht Search, 9 July 1937
« Reply #426 on: September 02, 2012, 02:51:28 PM »

Chris,

Between Gary LaPook's statistics and Bill Roe's experience it seems pretty well established that they *should* have been seen.  As a pilot I also think that is a reasonable position.

However it might be a little premature to speculate if or why they were not.

To my way of looking at it, this is just one of many mystery's associated with this event.  Even recovery of a piece of an Electra during Niko VIII will do little to answer this question.

Perhaps Niko IX will turn up a message like "... those fish were so good, but now Fred just passed from dysentery ... he rode the Electra off with the tide and I'm going to walk down towards that lake and see if I can find some sprouts to chew on, wish I had some pepto-bismol.

On Grand Cayman, the Barracuda caught off seven mile beach will kill you if you eat them, but the Barracuda caught on the North Shore are excellent (and safe) to eat.  A 'native' way to test for sure, is to offer a piece to a cat, if she turns her nose up at it, you better as well.  Around here (SW Florida) you catch a Lot of Puffer Fish, a real delicacy for the Japanese, but again they are deadly poison if you don't know Exactly how to clean them... 

I will agree with Gary that they *should* have been there, healthy but not happy when Bevington showed up.  They were not.

At this point, I am not ready to speculate 'if' or 'why' they were not rescued by the searchers.  Makes no difference now, we just know they were not...

Art Johnson
 
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Bob Lanz

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Re: FAQ: Colorado / Lambrecht Search, 9 July 1937
« Reply #427 on: September 02, 2012, 03:08:57 PM »

. . . I went back, rewrote and added a paragraph to my original explanation to try and make it more understandable for you and everyone reading this FAQ.

At some point do we also need a "re-do" on the bearings charts to remove Bearing 5 (Midway), which was classified as Not Credible a couple days ago?

Also I then asked a question about Bearing 6 (Howland), whether it should be re-evaluated because possibly another hearing of that same signal.  My question sort of died on the vine because immediately followed by much more interesting posts about how to cut aluminum at home for fun and profit . . .   :)

(Yes, more thread drift, administrators feel free to move this, or tell me to move it somewhere.)


Alan, I suppose it would be better in one of the topics in Radio Reflections.  Maybe Betty's Notebook or which ever one you choose.  Just copy and paste it there and then remove this post here.
Doc
TIGHAR #3906
 
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Chris Johnson

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Re: FAQ: Colorado / Lambrecht Search, 9 July 1937
« Reply #428 on: September 02, 2012, 03:34:16 PM »

Lots of things "should" have but wern't, I beleive its life or human error.

Looks like we'll have to wait another year or so for Niku VIII, gives me more time to prepare for a Niku? land expedition :)
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Jeff Victor Hayden

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Re: FAQ: Colorado / Lambrecht Search, 9 July 1937
« Reply #429 on: September 02, 2012, 05:17:13 PM »

It appears that there was quite a substantial search implemented to locate the missing flyer and airplane. A smaller area, more airplanes, special equipment and more up to date SAR manuals. Which all failed to locate the Fossett airplane wreckage although they did find numerous other wrecks.

Fossett took off with enough fuel for four to five hours of flight, according to Civil Air Patrol spokesperson Maj. Cynthia S. Ryan.[50] CAP searchers were told that Fossett had gone out for a short flight over favorite territory, possibly including the areas of Lucky Boy Pass and Walker Lake. At one point it was suggested that he might have been out scouting for potential sites to conduct a planned land speed run, but that later turned out to be untrue. A Federal Aviation Administration (FAA) spokesperson noted that Fossett apparently did not file a flight plan, and was not required to do so.[51] On the second day, Civil Air Patrol aircraft searched but found no trace of wreckage after initiating a complex and expanding search of what would later evolve into a nearly 20,000 square miles (52,000 km2) area of some of the most rugged terrain in North America. The search presented a severe challenge from the standpoint of flying hundreds of hours in very difficult conditions safely. On the first day of CAP searching, operations were suspended by mid-day due to high winds, according to spokesperson and Public Information Officer, Maj. Cynthia S. Ryan, of the Civil Air Patrol. By the fourth day, the Civil Air Patrol was using fourteen aircraft in the search effort, including one equipped with the ARCHER system that could automatically scan detailed imaging for a given signature of the missing aircraft.[52] By September 10, search crews had found eight previously uncharted crash sites,[53][54] some of which are decades old,[55] but none related to Fossett's disappearance. The urgency of what was still regarded as a rescue mission meant that minimal immediate effort was made to identify the aircraft in the uncharted crash sites,[56] although some had speculated that one could have belonged to Charles Clifford Ogle, missing since 1964.[57] All told, about two dozen aircraft were involved in the massive search, operating primarily from the primary search base at Minden, Nevada, with a secondary search base located at Bishop, California. CAP searchers came from Wings across the United States, including Nevada, Utah, California, Arizona, New Mexico, Idaho, Oregon, Pennsylvania and Texas.[58]

Lambrecht did the best he could with his limited resources which he acknowledges in the Lambrecht-Goerner Letter....

"3 obsolete aircraft with limited range"

http://tighar.org/Projects/Earhart/Archives/Documents/Letters/LambrechtGoerner.pdf

I have read with interest and, often been almost convinced that Lambrecht was guaranteed to find the Electra what with all the SAR manuals being quoted, visiblity charts, detailed search patterns etc... but, when Fossett went missing all this and more was available and....NOTHING, diddly squat. Surely the odds of finding Fossetts wreckage were 100% guaranteed compared to the Lambrecht task? but, no.





This must be the place
 
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Alan Harris

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Re: FAQ: Colorado / Lambrecht Search, 9 July 1937
« Reply #430 on: September 02, 2012, 06:06:06 PM »

If you copy/paste as Bob suggested, I will do the same and follow you later tonight, but I have got to go right now.

Art, I have started a new topic under Radio Reflections (as Bob suggested).  I called it "Discussions Re Radio Bearings, Fall 2012".  I deleted my post here in the Lambrecht thread, and just sort of rewrote it into an introduction to the new topic.  I think you can move your post under there and it will still make sense as to "flow".

I hope other knowledgeable radio people besides yourself find the new topic and join in.  This is one area where I am not knowledgeable, lol.
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Malcolm McKay

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Re: FAQ: Colorado / Lambrecht Search, 9 July 1937
« Reply #431 on: September 02, 2012, 06:32:18 PM »

No one has accused you of conspiring with Billings, but you posit an interesting hypothesis that might explain your repeated refusal to disclose the length and nature of your association with him.  A conspiracy buff would have a ball with this.       Pure paranoia, no doubt.  BTW, how long have you been corresponding with David?

Here you are Ric, just for you the answer you have been seeking.

David Billings and myself are happily married and are the proud parents of twins, a little girl called Amelia and a little boy named Fred. We have the cutest little chihuahua called Electra. Last year our whole family had the most wonderful trip to a little Pacific island called Nikumaroro. Unfortunately we had to leave Electra at home because he doesn't like flying, but he says tell Uncle Ric I said "Woof".

We recommend that as you are so interested in Amelia Earhart you should visit it. Apparently there is a story that the natives tell at night around the camp fire of the big silver bird that came from the land of the setting sun and of the two white gods who ascended from it. It is very sweet to hear it told in the local Nikumaroroan dialect. David and I were so thrilled to know that we had quite by accident named our two wonderful little tykes after such famous people. If we are blessed with a third we are going to call it D'Bris Field as a reminder of that wonderful trip, the long warm tropical nights and the sound of the coconut crabs as they scuttle through the scaveola in their delightfully cute mating rituals.

Anyway enough of the family stuff Ric, you take care and please feel free to drop in anytime you are in our little neck of the woods.

Best wishes

Malcolm  :-*
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Malcolm McKay

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Re: FAQ: Colorado / Lambrecht Search, 9 July 1937
« Reply #432 on: September 02, 2012, 06:39:01 PM »


Now my personal opinion is that the Electra came down at sea and sank. That puts me in the crashed and sank group with Nauticos and probably the majority of people who have been diverted by this aviation mystery.

And on what evidence do you base that opinion?  I'm aware of none.  You must have a reason for selecting that hypothesis over all the other unproven hypotheses which, according to you, have equal validity.


Very simple Ric - no one has found any sign of it on land. And that still doesn't alter the other simple truth that in 23 years TIGHAR have yet to come up with anything that can be shown to be incontrovertibly connected to Earhart or Noonan. I can't alter that and all the diversions by you in attempting to create some conspiratorial situation between myself and David Billings won't either.   
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Malcolm McKay

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Re: FAQ: Colorado / Lambrecht Search, 9 July 1937
« Reply #433 on: September 02, 2012, 06:50:06 PM »

As has been pointed out, the wreck lies somewhere, and only in one place - so how can TIGHAR hunting at Niku threaten one who wishes to look elsewhere?  I guess - just calling it what it really seems to be - that's why this particular argument gets a bit stale, IMHO. 

No offense intended toward any - I simply prefer the academic challenges to those that seem to be more about motives.

LTM -

Good points Jeff - the wreck must lie somewhere. You are right that my opinion is more towards the splashed and sank line of thought (catchy title but sums it up  :) ) simply because of the lack of evidence found on land. I don't think that any of the proponents of other hypotheses see TIGHAR as a threat - as I have noted before the wreck must be somewhere, however it can only be in one place. So finding it, if that occurs, will simply end the mystery. As for TIGHAR's role in it - even the most fervent supporter must admit that 23 years is a long time to go without any success. We await the investigation of the latest video - it may be a game changer or it may simply be another cliff hanger as has so often happened in the past. I once posted that I hoped that the last trip would not turn into yet another cliff hanger - sadly I think I might be disappointed in that wish.
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Ric Gillespie

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Re: FAQ: Colorado / Lambrecht Search, 9 July 1937
« Reply #434 on: September 02, 2012, 07:10:35 PM »

Back to the rather clear issue some seem to have with TIGHAR 'looking' and how she goes about it (try to raise funds for a serious look-see out there or anywhere and tell me how that goes for you...) - it does seem clear that some would like to see TIGHAR have to break off of this.  I guess that's a bit blunt, but that's what I read into these things.  For what reason?  It's not a zero-sum world where TIGHAR is robbing others of their pet hunt - let them make their own case and go look.  As has been pointed out, the wreck lies somewhere, and only in one place - so how can TIGHAR hunting at Niku threaten one who wishes to look elsewhere?  I guess - just calling it what it really seems to be - that's why this particular argument gets a bit stale, IMHO.

Bravo Jeff!  You've hit the rivet on the head. In recent weeks this forum has become bogged down fielding criticisms from a handful of naysayers whose postings are devoid of any meaningful content. We have always welcomed genuine research that presents documented alternatives to TIGHAR's interpretation of the evidence.  If you think TIGHAR is wrong about AE and FN ending up on Niku, find us a genuine documented alternative source for the array of artifacts we've found at the Seven Site. Find us a missing American woman (or anybody else) who might have been the castaway of Gardner Island.  Find us the hoaxer who sent the post-loss radio messages.  But don't harass us with misstatements, distortions and opinions stated as facts. 
 
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