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Author Topic: Items that may have floated away from Electra / What to look for that may have gone ashore?  (Read 32354 times)

Brad Beeching

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Re: What are the things to look for that were taken ashore?
« Reply #15 on: June 17, 2012, 08:00:33 PM »

Greg, I agree that it is probable the first colonists found and scavanged "Camp Zero". It makes sense to me that IF they were there that they could have moved items in the plane to the shore. But when they did it is a good question to ponder. If they made a smooth landing and the aircraft was intact, I submit that they took some time to come to the realization that no help was coming and they needed to go into survival mode. If that was indeed what happened, how long did the realization take? I don't believe they tried staying in the plane too long during daylight. I read somewhere here that the Temperature and Sun is BRUTAL on the reef flat. With very few openings in the fuselage my guess would be somewhere close to oven like. As far as staying under the wing, have you ever sat on a beach under an awning out in the surf zone? On the Gulf Coast in Texas in mid August is prob'ly pretty close to Hades and Niku as I wish to get.  :P

Brad
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Gary LaPook

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Re: What are the things to look for that were taken ashore?
« Reply #16 on: June 18, 2012, 06:02:24 AM »


My theory is she was scouting when she ended up at the Seven site. I think her leg may have been hurt and was using a crutch and she needed shoulder straps to carry stuff, including the Sextant box (see my sketches in the Join the Search section about the little clips) and First aid kit had connections for a strap. The benedictine bottle may have had a cord wrapped around it.
http://tighar.org/smf/index.php/topic,17.75.html


Do you really believe that they carried a bottle of Benedictine with them? Remember, she offloaded "unnecessary" stuff in Lae. I don't know about you, but I've never found Benedictine to be "necessary" when flying or even when on the ground. (Have you ever actually had any Benedictine?)

Benedictine was not on the Luke Field inventory nor is anything else found on Gardner and ascribed to Earhart by TIGHAR. The way sunken ships are identified is to compare stuff found on the ship with the manifest of the missing ship and only after an EXACT match is found is the ship identified. There are no matches, exact of inexact, of the stuff found on Gardner to the Luke Field inventory which is the closest thing to a manifest available.

gl 



« Last Edit: June 18, 2012, 06:09:43 AM by Gary LaPook »
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Greg Daspit

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Re: What are the things to look for that were taken ashore?
« Reply #17 on: June 18, 2012, 08:47:56 AM »

Gary,
Yes, I believe that when she was scouting, mainly for water, she carried an empty benidictine bottle with her that she eventually filled with boiled water. I believe she carried the smaller bottles like the freckle cream bottle found at the Seven Site, to collect and boil the water before filling the larger benedictine bottle. And that she carried them in the sextant box that had a strap as seen in the Pan Am picture of what is assumed to be Fred's box. And that she carried kindling and part of an inverting eye piece in the box to start fires. The first aid kit from that era, also listed in the Luke Field Report, had clips a shoulder strap could be attached to. The First Aid Kit may be the metal fragments of a metal box found at the seven site. This lighter box may have been used to carry other stuff as well.

 To clarify, I don't think she had the Benedictine bottle with her on the plane. I think she found that item either on the Norwich City or washed ashore from the N.C. or possibly found it in the N.C. camp. But I think she did carry it with her on scouting trips along with the sextant box and first aid kits taken ashore from the plane.

 I understand the Luke Field inventory stuff may not have been on the plane in the final attempt, and agree its just the closest list available.

Again, this is all just a theory
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Malcolm McKay

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Re: What are the things to look for that were taken ashore?
« Reply #18 on: June 18, 2012, 09:51:14 PM »

Gary,
Yes, I believe that when she was scouting, mainly for water, she carried an empty benidictine bottle with her that she eventually filled with boiled water. I believe she carried the smaller bottles like the freckle cream bottle found at the Seven Site, to collect and boil the water before filling the larger benedictine bottle. And that she carried them in the sextant box that had a strap as seen in the Pan Am picture of what is assumed to be Fred's box. And that she carried kindling and part of an inverting eye piece in the box to start fires.

I do tend to agree with Gary that a bottle of Benedictine is a very odd thing to be carrying on a round the world flight.

The reference to the Benedictine bottle is in http://tighar.org/wiki/Bendictine_Bottle_found_on_Nikumaroro and the assumption that it belongs to Earhart or Noonan is derived from the later putative identification of the skeleton found by Gallagher as being Earhart's by Burns. Beyond that there is nothing to suggest that it was carried by Earhart or Noonan.

I really would like to see some evidence that clearly shows that the bottle was on the Electra rather than being from another source - perhaps carried ashore from the Norwich City by the survivors or perhaps bought to the island by the PISS party and discarded.
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Greg Daspit

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Re: What are the things to look for that were taken ashore?
« Reply #19 on: June 18, 2012, 10:47:34 PM »

Gary,
Yes, I believe that when she was scouting, mainly for water, she carried an empty benidictine bottle with her that she eventually filled with boiled water. I believe she carried the smaller bottles like the freckle cream bottle found at the Seven Site, to collect and boil the water before filling the larger benedictine bottle. And that she carried them in the sextant box that had a strap as seen in the Pan Am picture of what is assumed to be Fred's box. And that she carried kindling and part of an inverting eye piece in the box to start fires.

I do tend to agree with Gary that a bottle of Benedictine is a very odd thing to be carrying on a round the world flight.

The reference to the Benedictine bottle is in http://tighar.org/wiki/Bendictine_Bottle_found_on_Nikumaroro and the assumption that it belongs to Earhart or Noonan is derived from the later putative identification of the skeleton found by Gallagher as being Earhart's by Burns. Beyond that there is nothing to suggest that it was carried by Earhart or Noonan.

I really would like to see some evidence that clearly shows that the bottle was on the Electra rather than being from another source - perhaps carried ashore from the Norwich City by the survivors or perhaps bought to the island by the PISS party and discarded.
Malcolm,
If you read my response to Gary, I said that I believe the benedictine bottle came from the Norwich City.
I don't remember seeing any evidence, or claims, that the Benedictine bottle was carried by Earhart or Noonan on the Electra.
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Malcolm McKay

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Re: What are the things to look for that were taken ashore?
« Reply #20 on: June 19, 2012, 12:55:36 AM »


Malcolm,
If you read my response to Gary, I said that I believe the benedictine bottle came from the Norwich City.
I don't remember seeing any evidence, or claims, that the Benedictine bottle was carried by Earhart or Noonan on the Electra.

Thanks for that clarification, however it doesn't affect my reservations about its association with Earhart based on the available evidence. Simply put, other than its presence in the general area of the skeleton of which it can be said with some truth that the fact that it is Earhart is very far from proven, the bottle could have been introduced to the area by anyone before Gallagher collected up the bones. The association of the bottle with Earhart and the subsequent cloud castles then about its usage are tenuous if not stretched to breaking point.     
« Last Edit: June 19, 2012, 01:10:25 AM by Malcolm McKay »
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JNev

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Re: What are the things to look for that were taken ashore?
« Reply #21 on: June 19, 2012, 06:19:32 AM »


Malcolm,
If you read my response to Gary, I said that I believe the benedictine bottle came from the Norwich City.
I don't remember seeing any evidence, or claims, that the Benedictine bottle was carried by Earhart or Noonan on the Electra.

...the bottle could have been introduced to the area by anyone before Gallagher collected up the bones.

Which is well accepted by most of us already.

Quote
The association of the bottle with Earhart and the subsequent cloud castles then about its usage are tenuous if not stretched to breaking point.   

I guess I missed the 'cloud castles' - if you mean 'ideas' postulated here now and then, what's wrong with exercising ideas?  If we didn't exercise that curiosity this would be a boring forum.

Of course it's 'tenuous' - we have a 'report' - much like that old "c/n 1055" tag 'report' from East New Britain, for example, by which you'd launch an expedition there to find that reported wreck.  I fail to see a difference - except we have a documented report of a skeleton (partial) found with a real bottle, whatever its source and however it got there.

Of course maybe AE swam back to East New Britain and hung her engine mount tag on a relic she found there before disappearing into the jungle for good... now THERE's a hypothesis for you (and she surely didn't have the fuel to get there)...  :D

Anyway, finding a bottle of any sort and capactiy near the remains of a 'castaway' (or whatever the poor soul was) does suggest a relationship and considering the picture of a struggling survivor is not necessarily beyond the pale.

LTM -
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« Last Edit: June 19, 2012, 06:21:38 AM by J. Nevill »
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Martin X. Moleski, SJ

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Re: What are the things to look for that were taken ashore?
« Reply #22 on: June 19, 2012, 08:33:36 AM »

... we have a documented report of a skeleton (partial) found with a real bottle ...

And the report said that the bottle was half-filled with water, which, although not perfect proof, is suggestive that the person who left the skeleton there also left the bottle.

There is no way to show that the bottle came from AE and FN.  Bottles don't come with serial numbers.  Even if they had an entire liquor cabinet on board, there would never be a way to show that a particular liquor bottle on the island came from that cabinet.

The bottle talks about a person who found a way to get water into it.  It does not reveal who that person was.  Along with the burned or melted bottles, it may give a peek into the castaway's last days.  That's as far as it goes.
LTM,

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Andrew M McKenna

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Re: What are the things to look for that were taken ashore?
« Reply #23 on: June 19, 2012, 11:44:47 AM »

Marty says

"And the report said that the bottle was half-filled with water"

I was pretty sure of that as well, but when I went to the Bones correspondence earlier today, I couldn't find the reference to the bottle being half full of water.  Can you finger it for me?

Happy to be reminded.

The implications, of course, are that the castaway was using a second hand bottle to carry water, not to carry around Benedictine as implied by some folks.  The bottle would make a handy container.  The association with the castaway in Gallagher's mind is very clear from the wire traffic and file entries on the issue, and the number of times they speculated about the skeleton being "Mrs. Putnam" is striking.

Andrew
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Bruce Thomas

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Re: What are the things to look for that were taken ashore?
« Reply #24 on: June 19, 2012, 01:17:20 PM »

Marty says

"And the report said that the bottle was half-filled with water"

I was pretty sure of that as well, but when I went to the Bones correspondence earlier today, I couldn't find the reference to the bottle being half full of water.  Can you finger it for me?

Happy to be reminded.

The implications, of course, are that the castaway was using a second hand bottle to carry water, not to carry around Benedictine as implied by some folks.  The bottle would make a handy container.  The association with the castaway in Gallagher's mind is very clear from the wire traffic and file entries on the issue, and the number of times they speculated about the skeleton being "Mrs. Putnam" is striking.

Andrew

Perhaps the source of the memory of there being water in the Benedictine bottle comes from the Floyd Kilts story published in the San Diego Tribune:  "Beside the body was a cognac bottle with fresh water in it for drinking."
LTM,

Bruce
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Chris Johnson

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Re: What are the things to look for that were taken ashore?
« Reply #25 on: June 19, 2012, 01:56:05 PM »

Bruce is right  :) Gallagher didn't mention water being in the bottle.

Re reading the communications Gallagher firstly mentions the skull, then goes on to mention finding additional bones, the shoe fragment, bottle and sextant box.  He then asks for the return of the bottle.  slim chance that bottle was taken to site by settlers whiulst logging to drink from.  not that i beleive that  ;)
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George Pachulski

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Re: What are the things to look for that were taken ashore?
« Reply #26 on: June 21, 2012, 08:25:48 AM »

The natives are superstitious as the devil  as are many others...

The Kilts story also lends itself to further speculative interpretation.

Maybe someone went over the skeltons before Gallagher saw them then.... he was not first on the scene.

There is a statement that the natives had visited the bone site 6 months before Galagher got there.
Just think maybe both skeltons were there, they had died from bad clams or some such. Then after finding the skeltons some of the natives took as many bones, after looking for rings etc and dumped all they could into the ocean leaving just 13 bones on shore. Superstition may have driven them to perform the ocean burial.  Likewise they may have land buried the skull so that it would not haunt them later for the meager possesions, including the orginal sextant,  that were taken and or scattered. This may have been an after thought when they no longer had the boat. ???

who knows?

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Bruce Thomas

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Re: What are the things to look for that were taken ashore?
« Reply #27 on: June 21, 2012, 09:32:43 AM »

The natives are superstitious as the devil  as are many others...

The Kilts story also lends itself to further speculative interpretation.

Maybe someone went over the skeltons before Gallagher saw them then.... he was not first on the scene.

There is a statement that the natives had visited the bone site 6 months before Galagher got there.
Just think maybe both skeltons were there, they had died from bad clams or some such. Then after finding the skeltons some of the natives took as many bones, after looking for rings etc and dumped all they could into the ocean leaving just 13 bones on shore. Superstition may have driven them to perform the ocean burial.  Likewise they may have land buried the skull so that it would not haunt them later for the meager possesions, including the orginal sextant,  that were taken and or scattered. This may have been an after thought when they no longer had the boat. ???

who knows?

I recommend you read Tom King's splendid novel, Thirteen Bones, for a nice imaginative tale of how the finding of a castaway's bones on Nikumaroro might have affected the colonists.  Although I've had the book on my bookshelf -- signed by the author, no less! -- since the end of 2010 (it came out in 2009), I only sat down and read it cover-to-cover last week.  I especially enjoyed the neat storyline that supplies a basis for the various tidbits in the Floyd Kilts story.
LTM,

Bruce
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Chris Johnson

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Re: What are the things to look for that were taken ashore?
« Reply #28 on: June 21, 2012, 11:23:15 AM »

Yes can recommend Thirteen Bones, Fiction based on a hypothysis and also fact (such a beleifs and behaviours)  Lets just say that the settlers would deal with the remains with great reverance (sp)
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Greg Daspit

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Re: What are the things to look for that were taken ashore?
« Reply #29 on: June 21, 2012, 01:05:56 PM »

http://www.criticalpast.com/video/65675063657_Amelia-Earhart-Putnam_Fred-Noonan_transatlantic-flight_Fred-Noonan

This link was posted by Jeff Hayden on another thread.
You can see alot of interesting things being weighed.
You can see the a raft taken out and examined, a canteen, the pole used to pass notes, etc. 
Not sure this was on the final flight or any exact stuff seen in it was taken ashore but it is just interesting video I had not seen before
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