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Author Topic: Reno Presentation - Hi-Res Nessie Photo Available ?  (Read 71013 times)

Chris Johnson

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Re: Reno Presentation - Hi-Res Nessie Photo Available ?
« Reply #15 on: March 28, 2012, 03:27:29 AM »

That is definitely the highest resolution picture that I have seen so far. Attached is an equalized version. It looks like a sailor carrying a lifesaver and has a walking stick tucked under his arm... I guess we will have to wait to see the improved version.

You're right, that is what it looks like.

gl
The low res picture always looked like someone in the surf waving to me.  Maybe AE rushing out of the jungle to late to be rescued by Bevington and Co

On the other hand I'm sure TIGHAR and the US gov have got a better angle on it whatever it may be.
« Last Edit: February 12, 2013, 09:02:18 AM by J. Nevill »
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Jeff Victor Hayden

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Re: Reno Presentation - Hi-Res Nessie Photo Available ?
« Reply #16 on: March 28, 2012, 06:08:24 AM »

The photo available to the public is the low resolution version of the original photo. The photo used in the CNN circle is the original high resolution one. The sharpness and image detail will basically never be better than it is in the original image capture at the given resolution of the capture device, such as a camera. So a 1930's cameras resolution would not be as good at capturing detail as a 21st century digital camera however, that said, you can improve the quality of the image through enhancing it with techniques you mentioned Shannon. Remember, if the original capture device didn't pick up the detail then, no amount of enhancing will add that detail.
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Shannon Council

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Re: Reno Presentation - Hi-Res Nessie Photo Available ?
« Reply #17 on: March 28, 2012, 05:54:51 PM »

I guess it's fun to ruminate through all this, and of course there is excitement about recent developments.  What has me rolling on the floor is the scurrying for each to see for himself - apparently thereby to learn whether the U.S. State Department and Dr. Ballard are fools based one's own judgment of what they see in the picture...  It's the American way, I suppose, and I am glad that spirit is alive and well if that's what it is - but it does strike me as quite funny this morning.

It seems to me that most of us are just trying to be amateur photo sleuths and replicate what the professionals determined, and there is no harm in that. It certainly is good for exercising the visual cortex. Trying to see a photo of the wreckage of Amelia's Electra would cause most anyone to scurry, although simply clicking a link and opening a web page will suffice.

Anyone who disputes what Jeff Glickman and the State Dept. photo analysts determined the image shows better bring some big guns to that argument.

As an example of the mind numbing analysis Jeff has done with other images, check out this paper on the famous "Big Foot" movie he wrote:

www.photekimaging.com/Support/rptcol2.pdf
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« Last Edit: February 12, 2013, 09:03:31 AM by J. Nevill »
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Heath Smith

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Re: Reno Presentation - Hi-Res Nessie Photo Available ?
« Reply #18 on: March 28, 2012, 06:33:40 PM »


It is interesting, this debate about the professional photo analysis, the State Department blind study, and the public curiosity. I am also troubled by several things that I am reading on this thread.

Thinking about it, I cannot recall one single historical event where photographs, digital or otherwise, were not readily made available to the public, especially for an event that happened nearly 75 years ago and of a historical significance as the case is here. It would be understandable if there was some need for secrecy however that is surely not the case here.

I do find it troubling that a photograph snapped by some poor sod in 1937 of a deserted remote island in the middle of the Pacific now has some intrinsic commercial value and is not made available to the public. Now, apparently, obtaining a digitized copy of this old photograph (by TIGHAR or any other interested party) requires some substantial fee. Now we are talking contractual obligations and copyrights, this all sounds very commercial and personally I am somewhat turned off by the whole thing.

Finally, if it really requires the eye of a professional forensic photo analyst to interpret this photograph to the exclusion of all others, count me with the skeptics. This reminds me of the old tale, The Emperor's New Clothes.

I hope I have not offended anyone either but that is exactly how I see it.
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Shannon Council

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Re: Reno Presentation - Hi-Res Nessie Photo Available ?
« Reply #19 on: March 28, 2012, 07:06:43 PM »

Finally, if it really requires the eye of a professional forensic photo analyst to interpret this photograph to the exclusion of all others, count me with the skeptics. This reminds me of the old tale, The Emperor's New Clothes.

I hope I have not offended anyone either but that is exactly how I see it.

I believe that since the photo does not immediately and clearly present itself to a layman as the landing gear of AE's Electra, it needed to be analyzed very carefully by professionals. Quoting from the TIGHAR Tracks Oct./Dec. 2011 issue about the hi resolution scan :

"The resulting image revealed the object to be more complex than was initially apparent – a tangle of debris rather than an intact structure. Forensic imaging specialist Jeff Glickman of Photek has been working to sort out and define the properties and characteristics
of the various components in the image."

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Brad Beeching

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Re: Reno Presentation - Hi-Res Nessie Photo Available ?
« Reply #20 on: March 28, 2012, 07:13:48 PM »

Perhaps it's not only copywrite issues, but what was done to the photo by the boys at Langley. Maybe they are reluctant to show what they can do.

As an example, I once saw a photgraph of an NVA officer reading his watch. Nothing remarkable until you realize it was taken from 80,000 ft and 1500 mph .... Oh, did I mention it was 10:45 in the morning and the watch was made in China? If they can do that THEN, what in the world can they do NOW? Sorta makes you want to look up and wave!

Brad
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Heath Smith

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Re: Reno Presentation - Hi-Res Nessie Photo Available ?
« Reply #21 on: March 28, 2012, 07:18:19 PM »

Quote
Perhaps it's not only copywrite issues, but what was done to the photo by the boys at Langley. Maybe they are reluctant to show what they can do.

The High-Resolution image is not available to the public. We are not talking about the post processed files. Again, for a hefty fee you can apparently obtain a copy too. Just write the check for the right dollar amount.
« Last Edit: March 29, 2012, 03:36:31 AM by Heath Smith »
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Gary LaPook

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Re: Reno Presentation - Hi-Res Nessie Photo Available ?
« Reply #22 on: March 29, 2012, 03:02:13 AM »


A key to these images is the TIGHAR Tracks Oct. 2011 summary of Nessie's analysis, identifying that the "worm" type of landing gear on NR 16020 is consistent to what is identifiable in the photograph's components. The worm gear has the same, if a slightly larger, radius as the fully inflated tire.

LTM
The problem with that is that it does not have a worm type gear actuator system, it has a "jack screw" system, see in attached diagram labeled "retracting screw."

This means that there is nothing at the top of the landing gear strut that is round and that could be confused with a tire. So if "Nessie" is a gear strut with a tire at the top, wouldn't it just be easier to look for the airplane laying on its back just under the water's surface with one leg sticking up?
gl
« Last Edit: March 29, 2012, 03:23:10 AM by Gary LaPook »
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John Ousterhout

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Re: Reno Presentation - Hi-Res Nessie Photo Available ?
« Reply #23 on: March 29, 2012, 06:49:13 AM »

GL,
As I recall reading here, Amelia's Lockheed did indeed use the worm-type actuation system.  I'll attempt to find the documentation.  Later models used the retracting screw system you mentioned.  I also recall someone showing Amelia the retracting screw system on a newer model, and her commenting that she wished her aircraft had it.  This makes me believe your manual is for the later version, not Amelias.
Cheers,
JohnO
 
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Bruce Thomas

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Re: Reno Presentation - Hi-Res Nessie Photo Available ?
« Reply #24 on: March 29, 2012, 08:10:40 AM »

GL,
As I recall reading here, Amelia's Lockheed did indeed use the worm-type actuation system.  I'll attempt to find the documentation.  Later models used the retracting screw system you mentioned.  I also recall someone showing Amelia the retracting screw system on a newer model, and her commenting that she wished her aircraft had it.  This makes me believe your manual is for the later version, not Amelias.
Back late last year in a spirited discussion around octane ratings, Gary LaPook posted a document (TC590) that (on the second page of the PDF) states the/a Lockheed Electra 10E (Amelia's?) was equipped with "Retracting landing gear, electric worm drive 12.5:1". 
LTM,

Bruce
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Tom Swearengen

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Re: Reno Presentation - Hi-Res Nessie Photo Available ?
« Reply #25 on: March 29, 2012, 08:20:31 AM »

Like this?
Tom Swearengen TIGHAR # 3297
 
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Shannon Council

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Re: Reno Presentation - Hi-Res Nessie Photo Available ?
« Reply #26 on: March 29, 2012, 11:54:43 AM »

The problem with that is that it does not have a worm type gear actuator system, it has a "jack screw" system, see in attached diagram labeled "retracting screw."

I do not know enough about airplane parts or forensic photo analysis to really add any original thinking to this idea. I do know that I don't know enough and am simply trying to learn and figure out as I go.

But from logic, it seems like a binary decision : NR 16020 either had the worm type gear - or it did not - when it 'went into the drink', wherever in the Pacific Ocean that may be. The TIGHAR Tracks I've quoted from has a photo of Fred Noonan on page 7, working on the plane, with the caption:

"In Lae, New Guinea Fred Noonan assists with maintenance on the left engine propeller hub of NR16020. The bottom edge of the worm gear is clearly visible on the rear side of the left main landing gear strut."

Again, the Tracks issue talks in depth about how and why the worm gear was present on the plane when it took off from Lae and landed wherever; AE's plane was the last Electra manufactured with this setup, and barring a mid-flight landing gear overhaul to the newer, lighter  type, one would assume that the plane still had the worm gear when it landed wherever and however.
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« Last Edit: March 29, 2012, 01:52:41 PM by Shannon Council »
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Don Dollinger

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Re: Reno Presentation - Hi-Res Nessie Photo Available ?
« Reply #27 on: March 29, 2012, 03:47:30 PM »

Quote
I do find it troubling that a photograph snapped by some poor sod in 1937 of a deserted remote island in the middle of the Pacific now has some intrinsic commercial value and is not made available to the public. Now, apparently, obtaining a digitized copy of this old photograph (by TIGHAR or any other interested party) requires some substantial fee. Now we are talking contractual obligations and copyrights, this all sounds very commercial and personally I am somewhat turned off by the whole thing.

commercial value...contractual obligations...

If it helps finance the next expedition, I can wait.

LTM,

Don
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Erik

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Re: Reno Presentation - Hi-Res Nessie Photo Available ?
« Reply #28 on: March 29, 2012, 08:51:02 PM »

"In Lae, New Guinea Fred Noonan assists with maintenance on the left engine propeller hub of NR16020. The bottom edge of the worm gear is clearly visible on the rear side of the left main landing gear strut."

A closer look worm gear or jack screw?

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Gary LaPook

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Re: Reno Presentation - Hi-Res Nessie Photo Available ?
« Reply #29 on: March 29, 2012, 09:39:57 PM »

"In Lae, New Guinea Fred Noonan assists with maintenance on the left engine propeller hub of NR16020. The bottom edge of the worm gear is clearly visible on the rear side of the left main landing gear strut."

A closer look worm gear or jack screw?
Yep, it looks like there must be a worm gear that engages the geared arc that we can see in the photo. Now the reason we are discussing this is to see if the geared arc in the picture might be what we are seeing at the top of "Nessie." The problem is that the geared arc is not a complete circle, because the landing gear does not move though a full 360 degrees, but only through 90 degrees during the extension and retraction cycles. We can see that the arc in the photo is larger than the 90 degrees required but this must have something to do with where the motor and worm are positioned. We can't see the top of the arc but it is unlikely that it extended much further than we can see, maybe 120 degrees total, so it cannot look like a complete round tire. The other problem, which is also clear from the photo, is that the arc extends down along the back of the strut all the way down to the fork and is not mounted at the top of the strut so also would not look like "Nessie."

gl
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