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Author Topic: GLENN MILLER  (Read 33722 times)

Richard Lyon Metzger

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GLENN MILLER
« on: December 20, 2017, 09:47:41 PM »

The hypothesis is that a trawler pulled up a silver Norseman off the coast of Portland Bill, Dorset.
If you look at a map of England / France, Portland Bill is west of London.
Cambridgeshire, where the Glenn Miller plane took off from is located northeast of London.
Paris, France is south south west of Cambridgeshire and the line between them would have the aircraft pass EAST of London.
The plane, if it had made it to France would have passed over the coast area around Eu and Ault, France.


"The Big Band Era"
« Last Edit: December 20, 2017, 09:50:32 PM by Richard Lyon Metzger »
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Don White

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Re: GLENN MILLER
« Reply #1 on: December 26, 2017, 08:57:47 PM »

Unless there's a documented flight path or logical explanation for why Miller would have flown such an indirect route, it would appear the hypothesis is disproved before the search begins.
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Kurt Kummer

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Re: GLENN MILLER
« Reply #2 on: December 27, 2017, 01:02:25 PM »

There may be a logical explanation to the flightpath Don.  According to Brian Dunning in "The Disappearance of Glenn Miller 03/18/2014" the pilot "was required to follow a specific air transport route called the SHAEF Corridor once he left Twinwood; passing AAF Bovingdon, navigation waypoints at Maidenhead and Beachy Head, and then across the channel to a French waypoint at Fecamp,and finally landing at AAF Villacoublay just south of Paris.  Estimated time of arrival was between 15:47 and 15:51.  The Royal Observation Corps spotted the Norseman heading out over the water from Beachy Head at approximately 14:37, precisely on course and on schedule."

If you look at a map of England and France, you can see how that route would have taken Miller S from Twinwood, SSW to Maidenhead and then more SE around London and on to the Channel.

Obviously Ric and TIGHAR have a lot of research to do, but the hypothesis isn't disproved yet IMO.  We'll see how it goes.
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Simon Ellwood

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Re: GLENN MILLER
« Reply #3 on: December 28, 2017, 03:49:52 AM »

Yes, I'd agree that Portland Bill seems to be, at first sight something like 100nm west of the SHAEF corridor Miller's plane was supposed to be following. Seems a little far to have strayed while airbourne or drifted under current - but let's see what TIGHAR's report says as to credibility.

Note: there's now a new 'Glenn Miller' section at the top of the forum for future posts.
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Martin X. Moleski, SJ

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Re: GLENN MILLER
« Reply #4 on: December 28, 2017, 06:51:39 AM »

Note: there's now a new 'Glenn Miller' section at the top of the forum for future posts.

DOH.

I should have moved this there yesterday.

Better late than never!

It's here now.



LTM,

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Martin X. Moleski, SJ

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Re: GLENN MILLER
« Reply #5 on: December 28, 2017, 07:07:02 AM »

There may be a logical explanation to the flightpath Don.  According to Brian Dunning in "The Disappearance of Glenn Miller 03/18/2014" the pilot "was required to follow a specific air transport route called the SHAEF Corridor once he left Twinwood; passing AAF Bovingdon, navigation waypoints at Maidenhead and Beachy Head, and then across the channel to a French waypoint at Fecamp,and finally landing at AAF Villacoublay just south of Paris.  Estimated time of arrival was between 15:47 and 15:51.  The Royal Observation Corps spotted the Norseman heading out over the water from Beachy Head at approximately 14:37, precisely on course and on schedule."

"The Disappearance of Glenn Miller" seems to be a good starting point for discussion.
LTM,

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Dennis M Spragg

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Re: GLENN MILLER
« Reply #6 on: January 11, 2018, 02:54:38 PM »

The History Detectives program was a pleasure to appear in and assist. I was concerned because of having a forthcoming book but the producers agreed not to touch about 90% of what I was preparing. They preserved the integrity of the book, for which I was very grateful.

So, for example, they drew a line to not include the conclusive information about the Lancasters that I already had and, as with the Anderton logbook, they opted to present a 15-20 minute "bump" in flight time for the C-64 to the southwest along the required transport route rather than completely throw dear Roy Nesbit under the bus. Roy was still alive when the program segments were recorded during the summer and fall of 2013 and he passed in the spring of 2014 before the episode aired on PBS (July 2014). But I already knew the Lancsters were completely out of the picture, given BST vs. GMT and the clearly evident AAF and RAF documentation for that day. I knew at the time the Lancasters were all back at their aerodromes by 14:45A and the jettisons were all logged in squadron records between 13:04A and 13:21A, with some errant drops to the east and north of the jettison coordinates right over the western transport corridor and a ferry flight of Ninth Air Force L-1 aircraft, which was reported at the time, even in the February 1, 1945 issue of Stars and Stripes. The 149 Squadron Lancaster with Fred Shaw aboard, the navigator who claimed to see a Norseman go into the water, was back on the ground at Methwold and logged in at 14:20A.

The producers spent considerable time with the alleged clandestine operations angle for Miller, considering that the AAF Band was billeted in Bedford along with many BBC operations and Bedfordshire was coincidentally the location of some special operations activities. The closest Miller got to anything resembling anti-enemy activity were Office of War Information Voice of America ABSIE (American Broadcasting Station in Europe) broadcasts in the German language, which he did not speak. ABSIE was the wartime London-based European Service of the VOA.

One thing the producers also did that I appreciated was the hands-on visit with a flyable Norseman in Canada and I will never forget the pilot telling us that ice can easily form in the engine (and all over the aircraft) and that the old float-type carburetors originally on the plane were nasty. That and getting into a Lancaster did quite a bit to further my hands-on appreciation for the aircraft involved.

But the History Detectives episode is a mostly OK introduction before getting into further detail and the book.

Dennis

 
« Last Edit: January 11, 2018, 03:00:35 PM by Dennis M Spragg »
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RGWealleans

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Re: GLENN MILLER
« Reply #7 on: August 24, 2019, 01:18:21 PM »

(I posted this in the A. Earhart forum; I'm new to this site and as a member. I'll post it here, too.)

First, an introduction: I'm a new member but not to the mysteries TIGHAR hopes to solve. Retired attorney who studied Geology, film, dramatic literature at NYU and a law degree from Western New England University School of Law. I've lived in California since graduation and was an immigration lawyer. I had a passion for scale models in my youth and graduated to R/C in my late teens just as servos were being introduced as opposed to escapements. I loved reading the manuals of planes when I could find them. My favorite model to build was the P&W "Wasp" "Visible Airplane Engine" in 1/4 scale that was fully motorized with perfect timing, flashing spark plug lights (Renwal 1962 kit). I actually still have two Wasp kits with mint parts. So, intrigued by the Glenn Miller investigation and the mystery of the parachute cords, I initially looked in the Norseman manual for dinghies thinking that they were secured to a floating plane by tethers. I looked at the diagrams and the list of features and there it was: an emergency radio beacon stowed forward of the port entry door equipped with a parachute! I notified Ric immediately and joined TIGHAR concurrently. Why did it deploy? Perhaps the "cover plate" for want of a better term rotted away in the deep allowing the parachute to deploy. Then, perhaps before the Norseman sank, the survivor(s) of the water landing deployed it in the desperate hope of being heard. I've read that the Norseman equipped with the Wasp engine had three-bladed and single-blade props. Apparently the USAF was of the belief that three blades made the Norseman more stable in the air which I read in various posts on the net from Canadian restorers and collectors of these vintage aircraft. As for being off Weymouth, ditching or crashing after flying SSW from the RAF airfield, perhaps it was the only way around the fog, to the only open, fog-free corridor at the time?  Speculation aside, Mr. Fisher seems to have snagged the Norseman that carried Glenn Miller and it's there waiting to be discovered again!

I'll close with the belief and hope that Robert Ballard found parts of Amelia Earhart's plane, perhaps the fuselage section between the wings and tail, or those weighty Wasp engines! The NG special airs October 20. It's fun to be a part of these quests and to contribute vital information that was hidden in plain sight.

Robert Grant Wealleans
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RGWealleans

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Re: GLENN MILLER
« Reply #8 on: September 15, 2019, 04:09:53 PM »

Ric, are you planning on mounting a find and recover effort for Mr. Fisher's (Glenn Miller's) mystery plane in the English Channel at the old-fashioned coordinates he gave? Any Robert Ballard/Nat'l Geog. interest in this especially now with the parachute cords mystery cleared up? I wonder if any other fisherman has "netted" on this object in more recent times? Is this documented anywhere? Would local scuttlebutt from more recent times and fishermen be useful? If the plane is covered in discarded "ghost" nets (like the Andrea Doria), the dangers faced by submersibles/divers in searching and recovery will be extreme but might help pinpoint the site. Wrecks of all sorts must be legion in the Channel.  Even with an approximate location, it's still daunting.
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Ric Gillespie

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Re: GLENN MILLER
« Reply #9 on: September 16, 2019, 03:50:39 PM »

Ric, are you planning on mounting a find and recover effort for Mr. Fisher's (Glenn Miller's) mystery plane in the English Channel at the old-fashioned coordinates he gave?

Next summer, if we can raise the money.

Any Robert Ballard/Nat'l Geog. interest in this especially now with the parachute cords mystery cleared up?

No.

I wonder if any other fisherman has "netted" on this object in more recent times? Is this documented anywhere?

Not that we've been able to find.

Would local scuttlebutt from more recent times and fishermen be useful?

That's why we went to Weymouth last December.

If the plane is covered in discarded "ghost" nets (like the Andrea Doria), the dangers faced by submersibles/divers in searching and recovery will be extreme but might help pinpoint the site. Wrecks of all sorts must be legion in the Channel.  Even with an approximate location, it's still daunting.

Yes, it's daunting, but not dangerous. The water is only about 130 feet deep.  A simple side-scan sonar search with potential targets checked with an ROV should be all that is required.
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Martin X. Moleski, SJ

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Re: GLENN MILLER
« Reply #10 on: September 16, 2019, 06:12:02 PM »

A simple side-scan sonar search with potential targets checked with an ROV should be all that is required.

You are my hero, Ric.

After all these years, you still retain so much wild-eyed optimism!   ;D

I'm sure it will be a great adventure.  More power to you and the team!
LTM,

           Marty
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Steve Lyle Gunderson

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Re: GLENN MILLER
« Reply #11 on: September 16, 2019, 10:24:47 PM »

 I wonder if any other fisherman has "netted" on this object in more recent times? Is this documented anywhere? Would local scuttlebutt from more recent times and fishermen be useful? .....Wrecks of all sorts must be legion in the Channel.
[/quote]

I saw this on Facebook awhile back but so far I could not find a final determination posted as to its origin. Thought I would post here on TIGHAR and see if it's worth inquiring.
The group is 'Aviation Archaeology' my search was for "Norseman Propeller"
Steve G
#3911R
 
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Ric Gillespie

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Re: GLENN MILLER
« Reply #12 on: September 17, 2019, 07:29:20 AM »


After all these years, you still retain so much wild-eyed optimism!   ;D


To be clear, the methodology is pretty straight-forward but the odds of success are long. 
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Ric Gillespie

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Re: GLENN MILLER
« Reply #13 on: September 17, 2019, 07:32:33 AM »

I saw this on Facebook awhile back but so far I could not find a final determination posted as to its origin. Thought I would post here on TIGHAR and see if it's worth inquiring.

I've corresponded with Mr. Ruffhead. It's not a Norseman prop.
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