Can you add to the list of sextant numbers?

[Martin X. Moleski, SJ]

Yet another Brandis Sextant on Ebay today:
http://www.ebay.com/itm/WW1-Era-Brandis-Sons-Sextant-Complete-in-Box-Naval-Observatory-1919-NICE-/272382922128?
Maker's number as shown on collimation sheet is 5317, NO number on sextant bow and box is 4193, shown in photos.
Date of inspection by USNO:  April 2, 1919

adr

It's a real hodgepodge.


"The US Naval Observatory Cert. is dated April 2nd, 1919.   It shows a makers number of 5317, the box is marked with the number 4193 as is the sextant.  There is the U. S. Navy and the N inside of the O for Naval Observatory and the number 4161 all etched on the sextant arc."

I think the correct Maker's number is 4193--on the sextant and on the box.

NO: 4161.

The certificate does say that it is for 5317, but there is no photo showing that number on the arc.

What a mess!

[Arthur Rypinski]

Marty-
It is isn't what I don't know that gets me in trouble, it is the things I do know that aren't true.  My recollection was that the NO number was generally placed on the sextant arc, and the maker's number elsewhere. 

Not exactly.  If the number is in the middle of the arc, and hand etched, it is probably an NO number.  If it is at the end of the arc and die stamped, it is probably a maker's number.  So the number at the end of the arc and printed on the case is likely the maker's number, "4193," just as you say.

That leaves open the question of the reference to the maker's number of USNO ticket, 5307.  We can see it isn't 5307.  Is the ticket for a different sextant, or did the USNO guy put the USNO number in the wrong place on the form?   Then there is the seller's reference to "4161" as the USNO number, but no photo.  Is 4161 the "real" USNO number, and 5307 just a red herring?   

Sigh.

adr

[Martin X. Moleski, SJ]

It is isn't what I don't know that gets me in trouble, it is the things I do know that aren't true.  My recollection was that the NO number was generally placed on the sextant arc, and the maker's number elsewhere. 

I agree that the NO number is generally placed on the sextant arc.  I've got a couple of photos of nice numbers on arcs in the photo gallery.

In this case, the "5317" is on the Certificate of Inspection--but there is no inscription for the NO number on the slip--that line was left empty:

If the number is in the middle of the arc, and hand etched, it is probably an NO number.

Agreed.  The seller describes the hand-etched NO number with the stylized "NO" symbol.  Though the seller does not provide a picture, I think the claim is reliable.  Here is an example from 3987/1584:

If it is at the end of the arc and die stamped, it is probably a maker's number.  So the number at the end of the arc and printed on the case is likely the maker's number, "4193," just as you say.

Agreed.  Here is 3987:

That leaves open the question of the reference to the maker's number of USNO ticket, 5307.  We can see it isn't 5307.  Is the ticket for a different sextant, or did the USNO guy put the USNO number in the wrong place on the form?   Then there is the seller's reference to "4161" as the USNO number, but no photo.  Is 4161 the "real" USNO number, and 5307 just a red herring?   

If I had to bet, I would bet against 5307 being the real maker's number, though I cannot come up with a plausible fairy tale to account for how the wrong number wormed its way into the box for 4193.  A correction slip for the wrong sextant must be worse than useless, I would think.

The anomaly doesn't destroy the observation that there were a lot of Brandis sextants that had two numbers assocated with them.  The Niku box, 3500/1452, is still in the running.  This box does not have the NO number on it, as some other boxes do, but I don't see what conclusion, if any, could be drawn from that oddity.

Sigh.

Life is like that!

[Andrew M McKenna]

Brandis on Ebay - not sure this one got reported

scroll down to bottom of this page
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Antique-SEXTANT-Brandis-amp-Sons-Brooklyn-NY-Brass-WW1-US-Navy-Excellent-complete-/172389193228?ul_noapp=true&nma=true&si=whEmfF3LcXt9%252BK6R7YKZy5k4i1I%253D&orig_cvip=true&rt=nc&_trksid=p2047675.l2557

Looks to be Brandis 2864 with no USNO number on the instrument or the box.

This one is interesting in that the name and the serial number are found in the center of the arc, rather than off to the left end.

I suspect that this unit never made it into the USN inventory of sextants.

Sale is over, so not sure I can ask seller any questions.

Andrew

photos here

[Martin X. Moleski, SJ]

Brandis on Ebay - not sure this one got reported

If reported, I didn't enter it into the table.

This one is interesting in that the name and the serial number are found in the center of the arc, rather than off to the left end.

"F. E. Brandis & Sons" seems to be associated with pre-1925 instruments. 

I suspect that this unit never made it into the USN inventory of sextants.

I think what it means is that it was not sent to the Naval Observatory to be calibrated (collimated).  The random nature of N.O. numbers probably reflects a random submission of instruments to the Observatory. 

[Andrew M McKenna]

Another Brandis on eBay

http://www.ebay.com/itm/371781166363?ul_noapp=true

All I can see is the USNO number etched on the arc - # 1648.  The box has a USNO 1918 calibration sticker, but no numbers written on it.

I've sent a message to the seller asking about any maker's number at the left end of the arc, or on the box anywhere.

This one has the thicker frame that I believe was the model made for the USN during WWI.


Here is a research project for the Forum - Who was the man with initials H.K. who signed many of the USNO calibration stickers?  I wonder if the USNO calibration logs are in his grandson's attic somewhere....

Andrew

[Andrew M McKenna]

Update on this latest from the sellers:

"Hello, The number on the arc is 1648.The Brandis number is 4521 on the left end. Box is numbered 58281on a paper label, photo added. No numbers on the label. Thanks for shopping with us.........................Chris and Deb"

Brandis 4521
USNO 1648
With 58281 in pencil inside the lid on what looks like a repair or addition.  see the photo.

Andrew

[Martin X. Moleski, SJ]

Brandis 4521
USNO 1648
With 58281 in pencil inside the lid on what looks like a repair or addition.  see the photo.

Table modified.

[Gary Vance]

I think I found another sextant to add to the list:  "In the brass part of the scale is engraved US NAVY N 4516. Case is also marked with the number 4516. Made by Brandis and Sons, Brooklyn NY, instrument makers from 1890 till 1920. Serial number of Brandis 3920 on the left side of the scale"

The sextant is for sale here: http://www.fleaglass.com/ads/wwi-us-navy-quartant-sextant-brandis-brooklyn-ny/

I didn't see it reported in our list, so I hope I'm not repeating a previous find.

Gary

[Martin X. Moleski, SJ]

... US NAVY N 4516.

Case is also marked with the number 4516.

... Brandis 3920 on the left side of the scale

...

I didn't see it reported in our list, so I hope I'm not repeating a previous find.

Looks new to me.  I've added it to the table.

[Andrew M McKenna]

That is a nice looking instrument, and more complete than most including the key to the box, but the price at 1250 Euros is way optimistic.

Looks like one of the 7.5" radius instruments with the thinner frame members which I believe are older than those constructed for the Navy Contract during WWII.

Too bad the photo resolution isn't good enough to really see the numbers, but I think we can trust the seller's description.

Happy New Year!
Andrew

[Andrew M McKenna]

Brandis on eBay, posted this am, but ended a few hours later.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Brandis-amp-Sons-Sextant-/132084187552?ul_noapp=true&nma=true&si=whEmfF3LcXt9%252BK6R7YKZy5k4i1I%253D&orig_cvip=true&rt=nc&_trksid=p2047675.l2557

Seller's description includes:

The inscriptions read "BRANDIS & SONS, BROOKLYN, N.Y." and "5670." The words "U.S. Navy-N-4705" are scratched onto the arc.

Hard to see any numbers in the photos.  Looks like there may be another number on the box, but unreadable.

AMCK

[Martin X. Moleski, SJ]

The inscriptions read "BRANDIS & SONS, BROOKLYN, N.Y." and "5670." The words "U.S. Navy-N-4705" are scratched onto the arc.

We have N.O. 4705 /  Brandis 5760 in the table already.


Must be a typo somewhere.

[Bruce Thomas]

I'm curious whether N.O 4705 / Brandis 5760, which is documented as in the Smithsonian collection, has somehow ended up in private hands and is now listed on eBay, under consignment to Blue Pelican Marine. The exact wording of the description from the SI webpage is used in the eBay description.

[Andrew M McKenna]

That is a good question.

Possible that it got surplussed, but does the Smithsonian do that?

Anyone got a contact at the Smithsonian National Museum of American History?

amck