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Author Topic: The Lae Takeoff - a closer look  (Read 69674 times)

JNev

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Re: The Lae Takeoff - a closer look
« Reply #30 on: September 27, 2014, 03:55:57 PM »

Does this have any effect on the fuel consumption estimates? Or would it relatively negligible in the grand scheme of things?

Not sure whether you mean flap position, Earhart's habits or the reliability of Report 487, but it could, IMO.

How well Johnson's estimates applied would depend on reasonable attention to EGT and power settings as proscribed by Johnson's report and his subsequent telegrams to Earhart that tweaked his suggested approach.  Someone who overlooks flaps on take-off doesn't give me a high degree of confidence that she was all that strict about power management.

The question then is 'how significant' might that be.  Perhaps not terribly.  I suspect, having read Johnson's telegrams, that he realized Earhart needed a basic way to stay on top of fuel burn.  Whether she heeded we don't know - but she made it to where she thought Howland was with some fuel to spare, we know that, and we have reason to believe there was good margin for Gardner (some disagree, I realize).

If you mean continuing flight with flaps partially extended, not too likely.  The affect on airspeed should be noticeable, plus we now can all realize that she never extended flaps for take-off at Lae anyway...

As to Johnson's estimates, personally I have high confidence - but caveat that he was also accustomed to working with production test pilots who may have been more precise than the average L10 pilot.  Hence, partly, I think, the telegrams.

Anybody's guess, but I suspect it was not a huge factor.  The roundish terms Ric opened with here seem to be reasonable - and are actually very close to some paper and pencil estimates I once made myself, in fact.  I think they block in the realistic expectations that Earhart could have met well enough.
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Brad Beeching

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Re: The Lae Takeoff - a closer look
« Reply #31 on: September 27, 2014, 09:32:27 PM »

As far as flaps go, she seemed to have made a habbit of not using flaps on takeoff. In the film of her taking off where she starts gear up before she begins to climb ( I can't find the link) I think its in CA. she doesn't use them there either....  :-\
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JNev

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Re: The Lae Takeoff - a closer look
« Reply #32 on: September 27, 2014, 10:09:15 PM »

I remember that clip of the Cowboy take-off, Brad - wheels coming up as you say; in fact, I seem to recall the bird taking one last bounce nano-seconds before the gear starts up.

I don't regard Earhart as the most rock-solid creature of habit where aviation is concerned.  I do regard her as having been gutsy - maybe too much so at times.
- Jeff Neville

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Ric Gillespie

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Re: The Lae Takeoff - a closer look
« Reply #33 on: September 28, 2014, 08:54:05 AM »

LR487 is unequivocal.
(1.)  Best take-off distance is obtained using a 30° wing flap setting. The tail of the airplane should be lifted off the ground as soon as possible and held up through the take-off run.
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JNev

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Re: The Lae Takeoff - a closer look
« Reply #34 on: September 28, 2014, 09:13:08 AM »

The first part of which she ignored.

Sorry for the digression - perhaps I should break that out into a chatterbox piece.

...which I've done -

http://tighar.org/smf/index.php/topic,1561.0.html
- Jeff Neville

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« Last Edit: September 28, 2014, 09:19:05 AM by Jeffrey Neville »
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Kent Beuchert

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Re: The Lae Takeoff - a closer look
« Reply #35 on: October 02, 2014, 12:48:37 PM »

Quote
It's another window into her character.  She certainly invites amateur psychoanalysis, but one thing seems certain. The real Amelia Earhart was quite different from the Amelia Earhart of legend.  That's not uncommon in folklore.  Think Davy Crockett.
  Think Abraham Lincoln for a 180 degree divergence of truth versus folklore.  By comparison Davy Crocket folklore was gospel.
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Kent Beuchert

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Re: The Lae Takeoff - a closer look
« Reply #36 on: October 02, 2014, 01:24:40 PM »

I have to say that the claims that Earhart disregarded the recommendations are rather thin.  The fact that 30 degrees would provide the shortest takeoff doesn't mean that one would want to do that, especially if you aren't cramped for space.  A typical takeoff requires no flaps. The runway, as everyone can see, was long enough (she lifted off OK) and quite a bit longer than the 2100 feet mentioned. If you wanted to save fuel, the last thing you would do is to extend flaps, and if you don't need to do so, you certainly would never extend flaps on takeoff - it's just too out of the ordinary.  I have to assume that Amelia knew a lot more than anyone on this forum about how best to conduct a takeoff in an Electra on a runway like Lae. Another advantage of not using flaps is that you don't have to remember to retract them once airborne (and it is seldom the case that a pilot extend flaps for a takeoff so remembering to retract is not normal)  and that is an easy mistake to make, what with everything that's going on - the need to retract landing gear, get the right bearing and so on. It's quite hectic as you take off, and anything that removes an unecessary  task is highly recommended.  I remain unconvinced that Amelia made any error on her takeoff.  Too bad Amelia is not around to respond.  I think that might prove interesting. Not to mention embarrassing.
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Monty Fowler

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Re: The Lae Takeoff - a closer look
« Reply #37 on: October 02, 2014, 01:44:39 PM »

I have to assume that Amelia knew a lot more than anyone on this forum about how best to conduct a takeoff in an Electra on a runway like Lae.

I think you have a few too many assumptions in there, Mr. Beuchert. The one I highlighted being one of the larger ones.

I'm not a pilot. Never claimed to be. But I do know a thing or two about reading and following manuals written by people who know a lot more about the subject than I ever will.

LTM,
Monty Fowler, TIGHAR No. 218p ECSP

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Ted G Campbell

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Re: The Lae Takeoff - a closer look
« Reply #38 on: October 02, 2014, 02:15:18 PM »

Mr. Beuchert,
I assume you disagree with Lockheed's Report No. 487 and the recommendations of Kelly Johnson.  Strange.
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Krystal McGinty-Carter

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Re: The Lae Takeoff - a closer look
« Reply #39 on: October 02, 2014, 03:48:36 PM »

I have to assume that Amelia knew a lot more than anyone on this forum about how best to conduct a takeoff in an Electra on a runway like Lae.

I think you have a few too many assumptions in there, Mr. Beuchert. The one I highlighted being one of the larger ones.

I'm not a pilot. Never claimed to be. But I do know a thing or two about reading and following manuals written by people who know a lot more about the subject than I ever will.

LTM,
Monty Fowler, TIGHAR No. 218p ECSP

THIS

I have never even SEEN a 10E in person, let alone flown one, but Amelia, as far as I can tell, was a better celebrity than a pilot. Not that she wasn't a good pilot, but this was her first experience in a twin engine airplane, and she'd had minimal experience with it before she set off from Miami.  Perhaps someone can get in touch with Air Canada. They have an operational 10E, and pilots with considerable more experience flying it than Earhart did. Maybe they could give us some insight.
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Martin X. Moleski, SJ

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Re: The Lae Takeoff - a closer look
« Reply #40 on: October 02, 2014, 04:01:08 PM »

I assume you disagree with Lockheed's Report No. 487 and the recommendations of Kelly Johnson.

I think Kent gave a pretty reasonable argument for why AE might have ignored the recommendation: she wanted to "keep it super-simple" (original Curtis sign on their shop floor in Buffalo).

I'm not saying it was a great decision.  I can see how it simplified her takeoff preparation and the first few minutes of flight.

I think AE polished her technique in NR16020 on the 30 legs of the trip that she completed.  I can see how she might have treated Johnson's note on the use of flaps as advice rather than something mandated.

Everything I've said here is, of course, speculation.  We've got Report 487.  The film shows that she didn't follow its guideline.  She got the plane in the air and didn't panic when it sank down to ground effect.  I find that pretty impressive, even if we know, in hindsight, that she made it harder on herself than she had to. 
LTM,

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Ric Gillespie

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Re: The Lae Takeoff - a closer look
« Reply #41 on: October 02, 2014, 05:50:19 PM »

We've got Report 487.  The film shows that she didn't follow its guideline.  She got the plane in the air and didn't panic when it sank down to ground effect.  I find that pretty impressive, even if we know, in hindsight, that she made it harder on herself than she had to.

Any professional pilot who made a gross error like that, then or now, would lose his/her job.  But then, Amelia never held a paid flying job.
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Monty Fowler

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Re: The Lae Takeoff - a closer look
« Reply #42 on: October 02, 2014, 06:23:12 PM »

Ric and Ken are BOTH right.

Ken is right in that, regardless of how she did it, she did get that overloaded aircraft off of a less-than-ideal runway and headed in the right direction.

Ric is right in that if had been someone else's plane, she would have found herself out of a job at the next stop.

And TIGHAR is right to keep picking away at this mystery until all of the truths are know.

LTM,
Monty Fowler, TIGHAR No. 2189 ECSP
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Bill de Creeft

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Re: The Lae Takeoff - a closer look
« Reply #43 on: October 02, 2014, 08:33:30 PM »

I might be sorry I didn't just keep quiet...but when I flew a Twin Beech last (over 50 years ago) the twin tail was considered to make take-off's difficult with flaps...a little delicate because of flaps blanking out the rudders; driectional control being the consideration.
It seems to me AE had troubles on take-off a couple of times where she had trouble with directional control and some airplanes are like that...and once both throttles are full ahead you can only give away power to regain control...the result is a ground loop on take-off.
She might have considered she had adequate take off room ahead, and took the safer way to go (she did make it off ("which brings the avereage up")...
Who knows what alternative advice she was offered...and from who?
Even today75 or 80 years later, there are lots of theories on 'on how it should be done' about flying...and at that time, for her, there were lots of ways ro do it, and the penalty for being wrong very high.
She  made mistakes, later on, and they cost her her life...but she got it off the ground at Lae, and on at Gardner...and she got very little help after that...
I have no Lockheed time, and no criticism to give...and I am proud of her for her bravery.

Probably would have been very hard to stop everything, and say"wait a minute; I need to cancel all this and study this a little longer!!"

She went for it!

Put yourself on that runway that morning, having been where she had been, and headed for where she was going... and talk of 'Judgement'.
In flying you live or die, by the decisions you make...doesn't matter where the flaps were, it turns out.
She made it off the runway and a lot further...
She was let down, in my opinion, ultimately.
Bill de Creeft

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JNev

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Re: The Lae Takeoff - a closer look
« Reply #44 on: October 03, 2014, 02:20:38 PM »

Never flown one but am aware of the twin Beech's rudder blanking tendencies - my uncle instructed in C-45's and spoke of this in detail to me.

Never heard of that in the L10.  Not to say it didn't happen to have similar characteristics - maybe so, maybe not.  But among other things, Johnson was a consumate aero engineer for the day and I doubt he'd of given imperiliing advice.  Earhart's mishap at Luke Field likely had far more to do with mishandling with differential power than with rudder blanking if Mantz's own observations and comments are to hold any weight (and I don't know that she'd used flaps there anyway).

I'm perplexed that anyone would suggest that 'flaps on takeoff' are an odd thing: that's a common take-off configuration for many types, especially where heavy loads, short fields and soft fields are concerned.  I have flown a number of types where it was 'standard' - Cessna Cardinal RG: 10 degrees for take-off is normal; Maule M4-220C: 20 degrees normal, etc.

If anyone would like to have a brief and impressive study into "why this is so", have a gander at the excellent training film Tim Gard shared a few days ago.  It involves the B-17 and three point take-offs, but it is the aero/early lift vs. wheel drag equation that is so important here. 

The B-17 is a different case (has to do with its design ground attitude more than flaps), but adding flaps provides a similar benefit in the equation: adding flaps increases camber and effective cord, which increases lift; in most types it adds earlier aero lift which = earlier weight off wheels (less wheel drag), and in turn = shorter ground roll.  Stall margins are also typically improved (which fits the lift / drag / speed relationship).  In short, the sooner the ship can gain ground effect and begin to accelerate more rapidly, the less field length that is needed for a safe take-off.  Also, the more altitude as one leaves the end of the runway. 

Gary LaPook wrote on this point several times - many times containing lots of fascinating detail.  While Gary and I didn't always agree on every technical point, I respect that he's an experienced pilot and instructor, and in my view he nailed the flaps vs. no flaps equation in a number of posts, perhaps this one is a clear example (you'll have to read through it to get to it, so I quoted it below as well).

Quote
Report 487 shows 2,100 feet for standard conditions, 30° of flaps, and 16,500 pounds using the full power of 600 horsepower from each engine, a total of 1,200 horsepower so taking off with a total of 1,100 hp gives a takeoff distance 9% longer, 2,290 feet. We adjust this for the takeoff weight of 15,300 pounds as we did before and find 1,970 feet. We then increase this by 6% to account for the density altitude so the complete calculation gives 2,088 feet compared to 1,914 for 1,200 hp (we could have just multiplied the 1,914 by 1.09 too), only 174 feet longer and with 912 foot safety margin, 44% extra runway available. Doing the same calculation for the flaps up scenario produces a takeoff run of 2,585 but this would be cutting it close so Earhart would have to have remembered to set the flaps correctly.

Who knows why Earhart didn't follow the recommendations of arguably the finest and most innovative aero engineer the industry saw for decades: could have been anything from simple oversight (which is so simply apparent I tend to believe it - and that's not to scathe the dead lady) to distrust of herself or the machine somehow.  Judging by how long the ground roll was and her continued dependence on ground effect once past the end of the runway (by settling to that height above the water), I'd say she'd have been well served to have used flaps - just as Kelly believed.  Looking at it anew, it was an unnecessarily close thing after all.

Yes, she pulled it off - it was gutsy, and she made it (I've given credit for that before this string somewhere); but as Ric noted earlier, the flight came very close to ending in the waters off the end of Lae's runway.  Then we'd of had a very different story about her and wouldn't be here on this forum talking about her in all probability; not that we're not most all capable of arguing over that ending as well, had we no other hangar flying to do...  ::)
- Jeff Neville

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« Last Edit: October 03, 2014, 02:24:33 PM by Jeffrey Neville »
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